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Old January 26th, 2017, 01:11 PM   #6801
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enviro..._assessment#EU
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old January 27th, 2017, 09:46 PM   #6802
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I was doing some research about Aragonese roads, and I found they have fixed the A-232/CV-20 anomaly. Both are first-order regional roads, but they became local roads once they hit the Aragon/Valencian Community border (on the maps both lines changed from orange to yellow). A couple years ago, the regional government of Aragon took over a couple provincial roads and rerouted A-232 so now it meets CV-20 at the regional border, thus eliminating the anomaly (the old route of A-232 is now numbered A-2710).

And a fun fact: Once works on a local road are completed, there will be A-2, A-22, A-222 and A-2222 all within Aragon.
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Old January 27th, 2017, 09:57 PM   #6803
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNGL View Post

And a fun fact: Once works on a local road are completed, there will be A-2, A-22, A-222 and A-2222 all within Aragon.


In addition, the only one post code with five identic digits is in Aragón
22.222

(there is no post code 11.111, 33.333, 44.444 and so on...)

https://www.google.es/maps/place/222....2397116?hl=es
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Old January 28th, 2017, 07:59 PM   #6804
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A-38

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
A38: Cullera – Favara (AP-7) 10km (? to >= 2017) – ? – map
Delayed to October 2019.

Source: http://www.lasprovincias.es/comunita...127002105.html
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Old January 30th, 2017, 07:56 PM   #6805
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A-2 Zaragoza

A few photos of A-2 around Zaragoza.

Zaragoza is the fifth largest city in Spain with a population of just over 700,000. It consistently ranks among the least congested major urban areas in Europe, usually scoring near the bottom of the TomTom Congestion Index.

1.

A-2-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

2.

A-2-4 by European Roads, on Flickr

3.

A-2-7 by European Roads, on Flickr

4.

A-2-9 by European Roads, on Flickr

5.

A-2-11 by European Roads, on Flickr

6.

A-2-14 by European Roads, on Flickr

7.

A-2-16 by European Roads, on Flickr

8.

A-2-21 by European Roads, on Flickr

9.

A-2-22 by European Roads, on Flickr

10.

A-2-24 by European Roads, on Flickr
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Old January 31st, 2017, 12:20 AM   #6806
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Yawn.

(I drive that road, at least part of it, several times a year)

From the last photo to exit 193 (Ariza) there is an exit number difference of 119, yet there are only 113 km between them (Measured and confirmed by me in both directions), so 6 km are somehow missing. That particular section was dubbed by me the "Pearson S. Trail".
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Old January 31st, 2017, 12:20 AM   #6807
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Distance to Zaragoza is weird.... never known where they pointed. I guess, cross with current N-330/A-2 (former A-23)

to overpass city, northbound is faster Barcelona ==> Madrid but has more traffic. It is 3 minutes faster indeed
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Old February 3rd, 2017, 08:30 PM   #6808
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A-22

A couple of photos of A-22 from Huesca towards Lleida.

Interestingly, they don't use 'Lérida' on the signs.


A-22-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-22-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-22-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-22-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-22-9 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-22-10 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-22-13 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-22-17 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-22-18 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-22-20 by European Roads, on Flickr


A-22-21 by European Roads, on Flickr
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Old February 3rd, 2017, 10:18 PM   #6809
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Lleida is the only official name of the city and the one used everywhere, be it in Catalonia or in the rest of Spain. The same rule applies to Girona.
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Old February 3rd, 2017, 10:22 PM   #6810
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I've seen some signs using Lérida. Not on motorways though.

What about Viella / Vielha?
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Old February 3rd, 2017, 11:34 PM   #6811
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
A couple of photos of A-22 from Huesca towards Lleida.

Interestingly, they don't use 'Lérida' on the signs.
More yawn.

A-22 stops abruptly at Sietamo, it doesn't reach A-23 yet (And won't do so until the 30th of current month).
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
Lleida is the only official name of the city and the one used everywhere, be it in Catalonia or in the rest of Spain. The same rule applies to Girona.
However "Lerida" is used in fairly recent signs in Huesca city. Other signs using "Lerida" are older. I use Lleida (and Girona, and every Catalan town with a different Spanish name to the official one) in every language but Spanish.
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Old February 4th, 2017, 12:36 AM   #6812
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I guess cities can use in their urban signage the name they prefer (Lleida or Lérida). But when it comes to roads managed by the Spanish government, they must stick to the official name (Lleida). As a matter of fact, I've also seen "Saragossa" signs at least once in Catalan roads, but never in roads managed by the Spanish government.

In other bilingual parts of Spain (namely Valencia and Navarre) it's common to see the names of cities written in both Spanish and the other official language, just in Spanish or just in the other official language, without following a particular criterion.
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Old February 4th, 2017, 11:52 AM   #6813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
A couple of photos of A-22 from Huesca towards Lleida.

Interestingly, they don't use 'Lérida' on the signs.
I can't agree with arctic_carlos. When you see a signal indicating the border with our northern neighbour from Aragón, is always written "Francia", even when the signal show the name in french ("France"), it is written also the spanish translation next to it, but you will never see the french name alone.

In the south, we have signals indicating Algeciras and (also) Tánger (moroccan city). The name of Tánger appears in spanish and arab, not only in moroccan; the name of Algeciras sometimes is written also in arab because lot of moroccans go to this place.

So, why "Lleida" instead of "Lérida"? Political reasons based on the absurd that consists "if we don't anger the nationalists, maybe they will forget that they want the independence". If that section of the road is inside Aragón, it must have the name in spanish, because it is the only official language in this region. If the destination indicated is in a place with more official languages, it's ok and advisable to put the city in two languages, but... using only one of the languages of the destination because the official name of the city is in that language? There's no logical reason for that and it only can create confussion between people if it were not because today in the media we have to hear continuously the official name even when the conversations are being in spanish.
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Old February 4th, 2017, 12:23 PM   #6814
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The idea is continuity. When traveling to Lleida, you eventually have to follow signs that say Lleida. The Netherlands has switched to Liège, Aachen, Köln, etc a number of years ago, because that's what you'll eventually have to follow anyway to reach that destination. The Germans are also changing to Dutch names (Nijmegen instead of Nimwegen for example).

Sometimes the exonyms are very different from endonyms and may cause confusion. For example Bergen / Mons, Rijsel / Lille, Kassa / Košice, etc. Because signage usually works with the concept 'less is more', the choice was to pick just one name, the endonym.

The whole exonym / endonym discussion flares up frequently, especially in areas with strong language identities, like Belgium.
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Old February 4th, 2017, 01:56 PM   #6815
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adevahi View Post
I can't agree with arctic_carlos. When you see a signal indicating the border with our northern neighbour from Aragón, is always written "Francia", even when the signal show the name in french ("France"), it is written also the spanish translation next to it, but you will never see the french name alone.

In the south, we have signals indicating Algeciras and (also) Tánger (moroccan city). The name of Tánger appears in spanish and arab, not only in moroccan; the name of Algeciras sometimes is written also in arab because lot of moroccans go to this place.

So, why "Lleida" instead of "Lérida"? Political reasons based on the absurd that consists "if we don't anger the nationalists, maybe they will forget that they want the independence". If that section of the road is inside Aragón, it must have the name in spanish, because it is the only official language in this region. If the destination indicated is in a place with more official languages, it's ok and advisable to put the city in two languages, but... using only one of the languages of the destination because the official name of the city is in that language? There's no logical reason for that and it only can create confussion between people if it were not because today in the media we have to hear continuously the official name even when the conversations are being in spanish.
From a linguistic point of view you're most probably right.

But from a legal perspective, you're comparing the treatment given to cities outside Spain, in foreign countries (France or Morocco), to the way a city within Spain is to be signed. Within Spain, that city only has an official name, Lleida, while Morocco and France have no official names at all in Spain as they aren't part of Spain.

That's why I think the most logical thing for the Spanish government to do on its roads and motorways is to respect and sign the official name given by its own Spanish legal order to a city within the country.

Of course, that doesn't prevent anybody from calling the city the way they want. When speaking in Catalan people say Terol, Saragossa and Osca instead of Teruel, Zaragoza and Huesca, so I find completely normal to say Lérida or Gerona instead of Lleida and Girona when speaking in Spanish. But that is a linguistic point of view which doesn't have anything to do with signage on motorways, which must follow official naming conventions (also by the reasons stated by Chris), at least in State-owned motorways.

And that also applies to State-owned media or rail companies, for instance. I would rather leave politics out of this debate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The idea is continuity. When traveling to Lleida, you eventually have to follow signs that say Lleida. The Netherlands has switched to Liège, Aachen, Köln, etc a number of years ago, because that's what you'll eventually have to follow anyway to reach that destination. The Germans are also changing to Dutch names (Nijmegen instead of Nimwegen for example).

Sometimes the exonyms are very different from endonyms and may cause confusion. For example Bergen / Mons, Rijsel / Lille, Kassa / Košice, etc. Because signage usually works with the concept 'less is more', the choice was to pick just one name, the endonym.

The whole exonym / endonym discussion flares up frequently, especially in areas with strong language identities, like Belgium.
The issue is quite problematic when driving in Belgium: depending on where you are, you have to follow signs towards Liège or Luik, quite confusing given it's a Belgian city. I could understand and even accept if in Germany Liège was signed Lüttig, given it's a city in a foreign country, and no official naming rules apply, but I think that within Belgium Liège should be the only name used in official signs.
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Old February 4th, 2017, 06:52 PM   #6816
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The idea is continuity. When traveling to Lleida, you eventually have to follow signs that say Lleida. The Netherlands has switched to Liège, Aachen, Köln, etc a number of years ago, because that's what you'll eventually have to follow anyway to reach that destination. The Germans are also changing to Dutch names (Nijmegen instead of Nimwegen for example).

Sometimes the exonyms are very different from endonyms and may cause confusion. For example Bergen / Mons, Rijsel / Lille, Kassa / Košice, etc. Because signage usually works with the concept 'less is more', the choice was to pick just one name, the endonym.

The whole exonym / endonym discussion flares up frequently, especially in areas with strong language identities, like Belgium.
What's the point about that? Simple: Lérida and Gerona are not exonym inside Catalonia, spanish it's also official and widely spoken there, catalan is not spoken in the place you took that photos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
From a linguistic point of view you're most probably right.

But from a legal perspective, you're comparing the treatment given to cities outside Spain, in foreign countries (France or Morocco), to the way a city within Spain is to be signed. Within Spain, that city only has an official name, Lleida, while Morocco and France have no official names at all in Spain as they aren't part of Spain.

That's why I think the most logical thing for the Spanish government to do on its roads and motorways is to respect and sign the official name given by its own Spanish legal order to a city within the country.
The official names given in France or Morocco to their places are official names in any other place who accepts the self-sovereignty of France and Morocco.
In my opinion the signs should appear in both languages, even when the section is in Catalonia or even when it's outside; when the owner of the road is Spanish government or Catalan government.
I have been living in Tamil Nadu (south india) where hindi is not spoken and the language used by 99% of people is tamil: all the signs in Tamil Nadu are in tamil and english, just because english is official in the whole India. They are also written in hindi even when no one in this state can speak/understand this language (but it's official in the whole country too).

Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
I would rather leave politics out of this debate.
Yes, of course. I don't want to look as a troll. If I joined in this conversation it's mainly because it will turn in something much more important in the near future, but SSC is not the place and obviously some opinions here aren't going to solve anything, so that was my last post about this topic.
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Old February 4th, 2017, 08:45 PM   #6817
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adevahi View Post
What's the point about that? Simple: Lérida and Gerona are not exonym inside Catalonia, spanish it's also official and widely spoken there, catalan is not spoken in the place you took that photos.
Lérida and Gerona may not be exonyms in Catalonia, but democratically elected bodies in both cities have expressed their will not to be officially called with those names but only Lleida and Girona.

That said, if Lérida and Gerona were also official names (which I wouldn't oppose), I would support them being signposted on roads, just in the same way Pamplona/Iruña or Alicante/Alacant are usually signposted.

It's mainly an issue of respecting the will of different territories, where the use of certain names may be a sensitive topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adevahi View Post
The official names given in France or Morocco to their places are official names in any other place who accepts the self-sovereignty of France and Morocco.
But the Spanish government is not bound by French or Moroccan laws establishing the official names of their cities, while it is indeed bound by any Spanish decree or law establishing the official names of Spanish cities.

I can understand Girona is signed "Gérone" in French roads, given that the decree or law establishing the official name "Girona" doesn't bind the French authorities. But as Girona is part of Spain, the Spanish authorities are expressly recognizing the will expressed by the city when they sign it with its only official name under Spanish law.

Of course at a local level each city is free to choose how to signpost other cities in their street signs; but at a national level I find it's more appropriate and respectful to follow the rule of using only official names, given the fact that the Spanish State represents all of us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adevahi View Post
In my opinion the signs should appear in both languages, even when the section is in Catalonia or even when it's outside; when the owner of the road is Spanish government or Catalan government.
I agree with you that in Catalonia road signage should appear in both Catalan and Spanish because Catalonia is officially bilingual Catalan/Spanish. I simply wouldn't apply this rule to names of towns (regardless of the legitimate use of exonyms by speakers of other languages) where local councils have chosen the way they want to be called.
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Old February 6th, 2017, 12:33 AM   #6818
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About language signs.... Fomento ministry uses only official name, even the region you are. This is, in Catalonia, Aragonese cities and towns are in Spanish always because it is official name.

Vielha, new signs, always in Aranese, old signs... just guess.


About Catalan roads, out of Catalonia they point Catalan speaking villages in Catalan (all in Valencian region and a some joined to border in Aragon). But they have been standarising it. It is a long time I do not see "Saragossa" in Catalan roads. In addition, I have seen some signs where one Aragonese village is in Catalan (because population there speaks Catalan) and another one, having an own translation, is not written in Catalan.
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Old February 6th, 2017, 12:35 AM   #6819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post


A-22-21 by European Roads, on Flickr
Ahead "Monestry of El Pueyo". It hasn't translation that word, neither in English nor Spanish. It comes from "podium" in Latin and it is used for places over a hill.

One of streches was till that monestry exit and it was pointed as if a big city was... when it is just a hill
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Old February 6th, 2017, 05:31 PM   #6820
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A-44 & GR-43

During a recent visit to Granada, the Minister of Public Works provided new information about the degree of execution of these projects:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
A44: Atarfe (N432) – Santa Fe (A92G) 3km (2007 to 2017/18) – projectmap
A44: Santa Fe (A92G) – Las Gabias (A338) 8.7km (2009 to 2017/18) – projectmap
Over 75%. Let's see if they manage to complete it in 2017.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
GR43: Pinos Puente – Atarfe (A44) 9.7km (? to 2019) – projectmap
50%.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NEW: A44: Las Gabias (A338) - Alhendín (A44) 6.1km (Late 2016 - Late 2018)

Besides, the Minister announced that works have finally started on the last section of A-44 (thus completing the outer bypass of Granada), Las Gabias - Alhendín (6.1 km), which were awarded in December 2015 (42.18M€). It includes more than 3 km of connecting roads at the interchange with current A-44 towards Motril.

It will be completed in 25 months, but I couldn't exactly find out the date of the beginning of the works. Anyway, in October last year, a member of the ruling party (PP) said the whole outer bypass would open before the end of 2018, so I guess they can make it.

Sources:

http://www.finanzas.com/noticias/emp...n-3561014.html

http://www.granadahoy.com/granada/se...070592999.html

http://www.ideal.es/granada/provinci...218203455.html
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