daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old July 10th, 2017, 03:39 AM   #7241
Reivajar
__________
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 12,081
Likes (Received): 3340

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
GJ-10 according to this tiny photo:


But GJ-10 seems weird. When following the Spanish ring road numbering, a XX-10 would generally be a ring road very close or directly around the city center, with higher numbers for routes farther out. Not many XX-10 autovías exist. For example in Madrid it starts at M-30, in Logroño it is LO-20, in San Sebastián it is also GI-20, in Valladolid it is VA-30, and in Sevilla it is SE-30. Off the top off my head, I can only think of B-10 in Barcelona for now.
I think there is or some inconsistency on the numbering, or just a mistake.

The section of the former regional road AS-19 transferred to Fomento for the new access to the port has been renamed as GJ-10:


Source

And the picture you were posting has been taking here.

However, GJ-10, although not signposted as it, existed previously as an "urban autovia" -I would say, mostly just a trunk road- in the city, which is actually the only big avenue in the city which can be considered as a ring road or something similar. It was the corridor of avenida Príncipe de Asturias and avenida Garpar García Laviana. Here you have a noise map made for Fomento with that small section of this corridor named as GJ-10. This road is actually signposted as N-641 as it was the access to the port from the national road network.

So, even though somebody may have forgotten the GJ-10 in the new signs for rebranding the AS-19, you're right about your intuition of the number of ring roads in Gijón. They may have disaffected the former GJ-10, and just keeping the new access directly from A-8 and A-66. They may be wrong on the new signage and right on the website by forgetting the former tiny GJ-10, or they may have left the former GJ-10 and transferred its name to the new one. In this case, the website would be wrong, and the signage would be right. It has not a lot of sense either, because as you have explained, usually the ring roads numbering in Spanish cities is consistent most of the times independently on the current "owner" of the road.

By the way, you were forgetting another two XX-10: the S-10 South of Santander, which can be considered many things, but not a ring road at all (well, ring road for the airport and for the bay, but city-wise it is clearly an access... ), and the PT-10, which is either a ring road, but the Northern access to Puertollano from the A-41. Not that consistent after all, isn't it?
Reivajar no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old July 13th, 2017, 05:42 PM   #7242
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,602
Likes (Received): 19389

The Plan Extraordinario de Inversiones en Carreteras will be presented tomorrow by prime minister Rajoy and minister of Fomento de la Serna.

According to El País, it is a € 5 billion investment with heavy private involvement. Given the disaster that toll roads are, I suspect these will not be traditional toll roads like AP-41, but rather shadow tolls or PPP projects with availability payments.

https://cincodias.elpais.com/cincodi...30_737848.html
__________________

my clinched highways / travel mapping • highway photography @ Flickr and Youtube

solchante, arctic_carlos, Highway89 liked this post
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old July 13th, 2017, 08:17 PM   #7243
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,602
Likes (Received): 19389

FV-1 Fuerteventura

The second carriageway of FV-1 opened to traffic today, a 13 kilometer segment from La Caldereta to Lajares.

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica...corralejo.html

http://www.gobiernodecanarias.org/no...reta-corralejo

The first carriageway opened to traffic on 29 December 2016. It's unclear to me if this first carriageway carried traffic in both directions or only southbound.

The government press release also notes that the 6 km segment from Lajares to Corralejo will open to traffic in December 2017 or early 2018.



__________________

my clinched highways / travel mapping • highway photography @ Flickr and Youtube

arctic_carlos, MichiH liked this post
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old July 13th, 2017, 08:39 PM   #7244
arctic_carlos
Recondita armonia
 
arctic_carlos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Sitges - Barcelona
Posts: 4,720
Likes (Received): 3924

The situation until today was the following:

- Corralejo - Lajares: one carriageway for traffic in both directions.
- Lajares - Caldereta: one carriageway just for southbound traffic; northbound traffic had to use the old coastal road.

Starting from today:

- Corralejo - Lajares: one carriageway for traffic in both directions.
- Lajares - Caldereta: final configuration with two carriageways (2x2). Traffic in both directions can use the new motorway. I read somewhere they now plan to restrict traffic in the coastal road, given that it runs through the natural park of the Corralejo dunes.
__________________
Wer kämpft, kann verlieren. Wer nicht kämpft, hat schon verloren.

Bertolt Brecht

ChrisZwolle liked this post
arctic_carlos está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old July 13th, 2017, 10:51 PM   #7245
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,778

Does anyone know exact way of future motorway?
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 14th, 2017, 01:45 AM   #7246
arctic_carlos
Recondita armonia
 
arctic_carlos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Sitges - Barcelona
Posts: 4,720
Likes (Received): 3924

A-1051

We have another motorway opening coming soon:

A 4 km section of Roquetas de Mar bypass (Las Losas - Cortijos de Marín) will open to traffic on Monday, July 17. The missing 1 km section south of Los Cortijos de Marín that will complete the bypass will follow in September.

Source: http://www.lavozdealmeria.es/vernoti...69&IdSeccion=3
__________________
Wer kämpft, kann verlieren. Wer nicht kämpft, hat schon verloren.

Bertolt Brecht
arctic_carlos está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old July 14th, 2017, 03:35 AM   #7247
sponge_bob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,953
Likes (Received): 2204

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
But GJ-10 seems weird. When following the Spanish ring road numbering, a XX-10 would generally be a ring road very close or directly around the city center, with higher numbers for routes farther out..
Chris, we did Spanish Road numbers to death last year and all we concluded was that a Z road can be a Motorway while an A road can be a goat track in Andalucia (or even a Motorway) . Please stop applying logic .
__________________

Penn's Woods, Kunagi liked this post
sponge_bob no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 14th, 2017, 08:33 AM   #7248
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,778

Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Chris, we did Spanish Road numbers to death last year and all we concluded was that a Z road can be a Motorway while an A road can be a goat track in Andalucia (or even a Motorway) . Please stop applying logic .
Z-40 has 2+3*3+2+bike lane indeed!!!!
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 14th, 2017, 10:01 AM   #7249
arctic_carlos
Recondita armonia
 
arctic_carlos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Sitges - Barcelona
Posts: 4,720
Likes (Received): 3924

Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
The new section of A-14 between Lleida and Rosselló could open as early as this Saturday, according to the local press.



http://www.lleida.com/noticia_canal/...-14-punt-obrir



http://www.lamanyana.cat/comarques/p...ida-a-almenar/



https://www.segre.com/noticies/comar...2350_1091.html
Finally opening on Monday, July 17.

Source: https://www.segre.com/noticies/comar...3496_1091.html
__________________
Wer kämpft, kann verlieren. Wer nicht kämpft, hat schon verloren.

Bertolt Brecht

ChrisZwolle liked this post
arctic_carlos está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old July 14th, 2017, 11:23 AM   #7250
CNGL
Leudimin
 
CNGL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Huesca
Posts: 7,452
Likes (Received): 1932

Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Chris, we did Spanish Road numbers to death last year and all we concluded was that a Z road can be a Motorway while an A road can be a goat track in Andalucia (or even a Motorway) . Please stop applying logic .
Take for example A-1505, at least between El Frasno and Santa Cruz de Grio. I never was so relieved of hitting A-2 after driving that road and all of its turns and hairpins, it seems they built it along a level line . It also features Inoges, a village that doesn't exist on Google Maps.
__________________
Neque porro quisquam est qui dolorem ipsum, quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non nunquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem - Cicero, De finibus bonorum et malorum, from which placeholder text is derived.
CNGL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 14th, 2017, 01:06 PM   #7251
arctic_carlos
Recondita armonia
 
arctic_carlos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Sitges - Barcelona
Posts: 4,720
Likes (Received): 3924

Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Chris, we did Spanish Road numbers to death last year and all we concluded was that a Z road can be a Motorway while an A road can be a goat track in Andalucia (or even a Motorway) . Please stop applying logic .
The system has its logic. However, it's an internal logic which takes into account the existence of 17 different regions (Comunidades Autónomas) with their own numbering system for the roads they manage. While some regions (for instance Galicia, Aragón, Extremadura or Castilla y León) apply different prefixes for motorways and conventional roads they manage, others (for instance Madrid, Andalucía, Comunitat Valenciana and Catalunya) apply exactly the same numbering system for their motorways and conventional roads, meaning that the prefix is not enough to know whether a given regional road is a motorway or a goat track. In fact the same numbering can be used for both. While the first system makes sense, the second one is a little messy.

Besides, the numbering of urban motorways owned by the central State with the initials of the city or province makes it easier to identify their location, although that can be challenging for foreigners, I must admit.

In any event, it's not possible to look at the Spanish road numbering system with the same approach of the French, Italian or any other European system. Here it's necessary to know in which region/province/city the road is located before trying to understand what the different letters and numbers mean.
__________________
Wer kämpft, kann verlieren. Wer nicht kämpft, hat schon verloren.

Bertolt Brecht
arctic_carlos está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old July 14th, 2017, 02:10 PM   #7252
marmurr1916
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 167
Likes (Received): 104

Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
The system has its logic. However, it's an internal logic which takes into account the existence of 17 different regions (Comunidades Autónomas) with their own numbering system for the roads they manage. While some regions (for instance Galicia, Aragón, Extremadura or Castilla y León) apply different prefixes for motorways and conventional roads they manage, others (for instance Madrid, AndalucÃ*a, Comunitat Valenciana and Catalunya) apply exactly the same numbering system for their motorways and conventional roads, meaning that the prefix is not enough to know whether a given regional road is a motorway or a goat track. In fact the same numbering can be used for both. While the first system makes sense, the second one is a little messy.

Besides, the numbering of urban motorways owned by the central State with the initials of the city or province makes it easier to identify their location, although that can be challenging for foreigners, I must admit.

In any event, it's not possible to look at the Spanish road numbering system with the same approach of the French, Italian or any other European system. Here it's necessary to know in which region/province/city the road is located before trying to understand what the different letters and numbers mean.
Why is there a need to indicate which autonomous community a road is in on route number signs?

In other words, it's a mess.

It could be revised as follows:

AP - reserved only for autopistas built and maintained by national authorities

AV - reserved only for autovias built and maintained by national authorities

N - roads which are neither autopistas nor autovias but which are still of national importance

RP - regional road built/maintained by the autonomous communities to autopista standard and with autopista regulations

RV - regional road built/maintained by the autonomous communities to autovia standard and with autovia regulations

RA - reserved for regional roads built/maintained by the autonomous communities which are neither autopistas nor autovias but of the next highest quality (A quality), this 'A' quality to be defined by national standards

RB - reserved for regional roads built/maintained by the autonomous communities which are neither autopistas nor autovias nor A class roads but of the next highest quality (B quality), this 'B' quality to be defined by national standards

RC - reserved for regional roads built/maintained by the autonomous communities which are neither autopistas nor autovias nor B class roads but of the next highest quality (C quality), this 'C' quality to be defined by national standards

If road numbering was consistent across Spain, people would become familiar with the the quality of the road associated with the letters of the route number.

You would know for certain that a road with the letter P in its route number (either AP or RP) was an autopista, that a road with the letter V in its route number (either AV or RV) was an autovia and that N roads were never autopistas or autovias.

You could get a good idea of the quality of an autonomous community based on the RA/B/C route numbers and standards.
marmurr1916 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 14th, 2017, 02:42 PM   #7253
arctic_carlos
Recondita armonia
 
arctic_carlos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Sitges - Barcelona
Posts: 4,720
Likes (Received): 3924

Your criteria make sense, but we must bear in mind that Spanish regions (Comunidades Autónomas) are competent to number their roads the way they decide. This competence is specifically included in most regional autonomy statutes (which work like the "constitution" of each region), and then developed by regional laws (in Spain regions have legislative power in the areas where they're competent). Thus, the State on its own doesn't have the power to decide how a regional road should be numbered.

Consequently, a nationwide comprehensive road numbering system including regional roads can't be implemented unless regions decide to compromise and abandon their own numbering systems, something which, as of today, seems quite unlikely. Let's say that in Spain every regional administration tries to show its presence wherever it's possible, and regional roads are of course one perfect tool for them to show how close to the citizen they are.
__________________
Wer kämpft, kann verlieren. Wer nicht kämpft, hat schon verloren.

Bertolt Brecht

Highway89 liked this post
arctic_carlos está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old July 14th, 2017, 03:25 PM   #7254
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,778

Asturias also points as AS-XX their motorways (well, two numbers when three in case of main regional roads). In the other side, they make us a bless because it is the only case where local roads have two letters according to municipality they are on!!


I have a single proposal, not to make so many changes:

A-XXX: Motorway (or highway or something similar) managed by State
AP-XXX: TOLLED motorway managed by State
N-XXX: Other roads maintained by State (they only managed national roads, there are no exemptions)
YY-P-XXX: TOLLED motorway (or road in those small cases where a single road, mainly tunnels, are tolled) managed by a region
YY-A-XXX: Free motorways managed by a region
YY-XXX: roads managed by a region where they can set several digits according of level.

Local roads maintaned by provinces... I guess it would be more expensive to rename them at first rather than keeping them, but could think on a different way if we want, of course. Anyway I would avoid YY-P-XXXX for a single local road or so.

And let's remember that all rings and some roads near main cities are named after them. If capital, it is used former plates letters for that capital. If it is not (Gijon, for instance), the nearest one.


I wouldn't change island network name because they will never be joined to another one. Easy to have two letters according to island (another issue is why a little island has three and sometimes four digit roads!!!!)

And for YY in case of regions we can choose anyone. Let's remember there are three starting by A, and five starting by CA (Cataluña, Castilla y León, Castilla La Mancha, Cantabria and Canary Islands). In this case: CT, CL, CM, CN and nothing due to they will use island names... but for other purposes IC (for Balearic they use IB...)
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 14th, 2017, 03:51 PM   #7255
CNGL
Leudimin
 
CNGL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Huesca
Posts: 7,452
Likes (Received): 1932

In addition, one of the very few female forumers proposed a very simple and straightforward numbering system, based on maintenance status:
A: Motorway (Autopista)
B: Good road (Buena)
C: Goat track (Camino de cabras)
D: Oh my god! (¡Dios mío!)
__________________
Neque porro quisquam est qui dolorem ipsum, quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non nunquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem - Cicero, De finibus bonorum et malorum, from which placeholder text is derived.

sponge_bob, Attus, Penn's Woods, pai nosso liked this post
CNGL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 14th, 2017, 04:54 PM   #7256
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,602
Likes (Received): 19389

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The Plan Extraordinario de Inversiones en Carreteras will be presented tomorrow by prime minister Rajoy and minister of Fomento de la Serna.

According to El País, it is a € 5 billion investment with heavy private involvement. Given the disaster that toll roads are, I suspect these will not be traditional toll roads like AP-41, but rather shadow tolls or PPP projects with availability payments.

https://cincodias.elpais.com/cincodi...30_737848.html
El País reports that it will indeed be PPP projects with availability payments:
Se planean actuaciones "en más de 20 corredores importantes del país" y que abarcarán más de 2.000 kilómetros y las obras se ejecutarán entre 2017 y 2021. Se usará el llamado "pago por disponibilidad"
https://economia.elpais.com/economia...89_186919.html

I haven't seen a list of projects to be executed though. € 5 billion over a period of 5 years would be fairly consistent with regular Fomento spending on new roads (€ 950 million in the 2017 budget).
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old July 14th, 2017, 06:10 PM   #7257
sponge_bob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,953
Likes (Received): 2204

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
El País reports that it will indeed be PPP projects with availability payments:

I haven't seen a list of projects to be executed though. € 5 billion over a period of 5 years would be fairly consistent with regular Fomento spending on new roads (€ 950 million in the 2017 budget).
AFAIR the last lot of PPPs in the 2000s were a combination of Tolls (Radiales and AP7) and availability payments of some sort from Fomento called an "RPA" in Spain. When many of these toll roads entered bankruptcy in the past few years the "RPA" was no longer payable annually as I understand and Fomento thereby saved some money. But the PPP model from the 2000s is a dead duck after the minimum €2.5bn of losses incurred on the Radiales and the AP7 (south of Cartagena)
sponge_bob no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 14th, 2017, 06:44 PM   #7258
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,602
Likes (Received): 19389

Fomento also awarded a number of concessions based on shadow tolls, as recent as only 5 years ago for the modernization of some first generation autovías. Catalonia and other autonomous regions also built quite a number of shadow toll autovías.

Which motorways in Spain were built using the availability payment model?

The availability payment model works like a mortgage, the state pays predefined monthly installments to the contractor over a period of 30 years. During that period, the contractor builds and maintains the road, with a 'good as new' condition at handover after 30 years. The main incentive here is availability of the infrastructure, both early completion and as few as possible lane closures for maintenance. This model generates incentives to cut construction time but not construction quality because the contractor with its 30 year concession - would have to pay for any deficiencies themselves.

A pro of availability payments is quality and predictability. The government knows exactly how much a project is going to cost by month and overall, whereas the contractor has a steady, predictable flow of income. The shadow toll model became unpopular by contractors because some motorways in Spain do not carry enough traffic to generate sufficient income for the contractor. Likewise, some motorways carry more traffic than anticipated, so the government has to pay more money than expected. The availability payment model is independent of actual usage.
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old July 14th, 2017, 07:58 PM   #7259
sponge_bob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,953
Likes (Received): 2204

Availability PPP would make more sense than Shadow Toll PPP if upgrading a road with known traffic like a 1970s Autovia.
sponge_bob no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 14th, 2017, 08:29 PM   #7260
Highway89
Registered User
 
Highway89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: La Rioja (Spain)
Posts: 758
Likes (Received): 1180

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
El País reports that it will indeed be PPP projects with availability payments:
Se planean actuaciones "en más de 20 corredores importantes del país" y que abarcarán más de 2.000 kilómetros y las obras se ejecutarán entre 2017 y 2021. Se usará el llamado "pago por disponibilidad"
https://economia.elpais.com/economia...89_186919.html

I haven't seen a list of projects to be executed though. € 5 billion over a period of 5 years would be fairly consistent with regular Fomento spending on new roads (€ 950 million in the 2017 budget).
All I've been able to find is this piece of news, but it's full of mistakes so I don't know if it's reliable.

Basically:
*The ring roads of Murcia and Seville (SE-40).
*Third lane on the A-5 and A-1 in Madrid and A-8 from Santander to Bilbao.
*A-73 Burgos-Aguilar and a new A-1 between Alcobendas and the Jarama Circuit.

Quote:
Lista de proyectos

Aunque la lista de proyectos aún no es oficial, el Ministerio de Fomento ha tenido en cuenta algunas de las obras que ya se encontraban en fase de planificación o que en el pasado fueron suspendidas por falta de presupuesto público.
Por volumen, entre los proyectos más importantes figura la circunvalación de Murcia, cuyo presupuesto de inversión supera los 300 millones de euros.
El Gobierno también está dispuesto a acometer el viejo proyecto de la Radial 1 de Madrid, una alternativa a la salida hacia Burgos (A-1). En la lista de actuaciones en Madrid también podría figurar la ampliación con un tercer carril de la A-5 (Madrid-Extremadura) y de la A-1 a su paso por la urbanización Santo Domingo. La mayor parte de estos proyectos están incluidos en el catálogo de proyectos que la patronal Seopan entregó al Gobierno en abril.
En Andalucía, la obra más potente será el cierre de la circunvalación S-40 de Sevilla. Destacan también las obras en Cantabria como, por ejemplo, el tercer carril en la Autovía Norte (Santander-Vizcaya) y la ampliación de carriles en el corredor entre Burgos y Aguilar de Campoo. En Galicia, el Gobierno trabaja en el corredor Vigo-Porriño.
http://www.expansion.com/empresas/in...4328b4593.html


Many of the projects were "suggested" by the trade association SEOPAN in April. The report can be found here: http://seopan.es/informe-sener/
__________________

ChrisZwolle liked this post
Highway89 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
autopista, carreteras, españa, highways, motorways, road, spain, spain in the world, via rapida

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium