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Old November 24th, 2008, 04:05 PM   #1081
Morsue
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I'm still astonished at how the Spanish can afford to build all these roads. Sweden hasn't even been able to a second bypass past Stockholm making the traffic situation here extremely vulnerable. As we speak the main arterial motorway is blocked because of an accident, and there's no way around it. How much of Spain's motorways are funded by the national and local governments and how much is development funds from the EU?
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Old November 26th, 2008, 12:40 AM   #1082
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The A-15 is interesting, since the population density doesn't support a dense motorway network that's being build at the moment. But distances are long, and accidents are frequent I suppose. Those are also reasons to build a motorway. I guess the cost per kilometer is quite low here.
Not so sure about that, I mean looking at this picture its prety clear that the costs are not that low, so it seems another bad investment decision as it wont handle much traffic



It's plenty of empty highways in many parts of Spain, and it is not normal at all. But so are politics.

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Originally Posted by Morsue View Post
I'm still astonished at how the Spanish can afford to build all these roads. Sweden hasn't even been able to a second bypass past Stockholm making the traffic situation here extremely vulnerable. As we speak the main arterial motorway is blocked because of an accident, and there's no way around it. How much of Spain's motorways are funded by the national and local governments and how much is development funds from the EU?
Not that much right now, it's only thanks to region redistribution (by a clearly unfair system) that the central government can afford to build so many really not necessary roads.

By the way, I dont really believe that Stockholm can't get a second ringroad due to lack of funds, specially in a state with such high taxes as Sweden. I guess it's all a matter of NIMBYs and ecologists.

Last edited by Booze; November 26th, 2008 at 12:46 AM.
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Old November 26th, 2008, 12:04 PM   #1083
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Not that much right now, it's only thanks to region redistribution (by a clearly unfair system) that the central government can afford to build so many really not necessary roads.
The regionalism of spain is odd at times, this road for example will probably have on average 5-10.000 cars per day, way to low for a motorway. In other parts of spain you have motorways that are cloged 24h a day.

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By the way, I dont really believe that Stockholm can't get a second ringroad due to lack of funds, specially in a state with such high taxes as Sweden. I guess it's all a matter of NIMBYs and ecologists.
The laws give the NIMBYS the upper hand, one single person can block any mayor developement for years by taking it to court. The north part of the Stockholm motorway ringroad that is now beeing built was blocked for over two years by a person that persistently battled the govenment in court.
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Old November 27th, 2008, 12:01 AM   #1084
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That makes more sense

Yes, regionalism in Spain is this way, everyone wants to have the same infrastructure even though there's no need at all, and then you easily find roads carrying 30K vehicles a day or even more in summertime and no money to finance a highway. Concrete and corruption are two very close friends, and discrimination among regions due to political reasons is cronical.
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Old November 27th, 2008, 04:14 AM   #1085
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morsue View Post
I'm still astonished at how the Spanish can afford to build all these roads. Sweden hasn't even been able to a second bypass past Stockholm making the traffic situation here extremely vulnerable. As we speak the main arterial motorway is blocked because of an accident, and there's no way around it. How much of Spain's motorways are funded by the national and local governments and how much is development funds from the EU?
According to the figures I have seen, Spain is to get €3.45 billion from the EU (Structural and Regional Development Funds) in the 2007-2013 budget, while Spanish central government is spending €6.2 billion on highways in 2008 alone. (I do not know what proportion of this amount is capital spending.) The proportion of highway funding which can be attributed to the EU therefore seems to be fairly small (less than 10%, assuming six-year funding of highways at the 2008 level). Also, ESF/ERDF funds can be spent not just on highways, but also on railways and economic development projects.

I have no information on highways spending in the autonomous communities or at the provincial and municipal level. In the autonomous communities at least it is substantial, since they have about one-quarter of the total mileage of motorway-standard road.

It has been suggested upthread that Spain is opening more new miles of motorway than most other European countries combined. It is also possible to do an interesting comparison with the US, which also builds new freeways but not on the same scale as Spain, either in mileage or as a percentage of the existing network.

In the US the federal government collects about $40 billion annually and the states and localities collect an equivalent amount, so the total US roads budget is about $80 billion annually. This has to pay for local roads, rehabilitation and reconstruction of existing roads, etc. so the amount available for new capital construction is fairly small. The US has something like 200 million drivers.

Spanish central government has €6.2 billion (about $8 billion) for something like 20 million drivers, so the individual Spanish driver gets as much money at the central level as the American driver gets from all levels of government. Since Spain's infrastructure is much newer, a higher proportion of this money also goes to new capital construction.

I generally follow highway construction in any jurisdiction where I can get hold of the construction plans. This includes about 20 US states, parts of Canada, Denmark, and Sweden. It is getting increasingly hard to find projects in the US which are for construction of freeways on new location (though Arizona and Texas have traditionally been reliable, and a length of US 59 in Kansas was recently advertised). In Denmark I have managed to find plans for one or two short lengths of motorway, but for Sweden I haven't found anything at all (the most ambitious thing which seems to have come out in the last few months is a 2+1 road in a rural county). For Spain, on the other hand, I already have proyectos for well over 100 km of new motorway--all of which were put online in the last five months.
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Old November 27th, 2008, 07:21 AM   #1086
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OK, so maybe the question isn't so much how large the percentage of road funding comes from the EU but rather how that money is distributed amongst the other members. Will for instance Sweden get as much money to spend on roads? But then again, it seems to be a question of priority. Is the EU money currently used on roads in Spain used for other purposes in other countries?

The development of the motorway network in Spain for the last 20 years is probably without equivalent anywhere in the world during the same period of time (although I think China could be close). It'll be interesting to see the economic development of Portugal which has started a similar road building frenzy, just check out their network 10 years ago.

Thanks for a very good answer.
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Old November 27th, 2008, 10:43 AM   #1087
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The EU was focused on bringing forward the infrastrcture of the southern countries in the last decades as the "old" countries (Sweden isn't an old member but has a very good infrastructure) have it already. But this will change soon, with the new financial period of the regional funds (starting in 2013) ressources will massively go to Eastern Europe. Spain among other countries will have to find another way to finance their construction speed or decelerate it massively. Should the crisis hold on for some years, they'll get a real problem IMO as they couldn't realise most of teir projects at all.

Btw., living here now I have to say that Spanish road signage is, well, crap. There's no logic behind road numbers and categorieswhich would be obvious on the first look (around Vigo are several N-xxx, PO-xxxx and VG-xxx roads, the AP-9, some A-xxx and the AG-57 among others...) and even worse, the signage on crossroads (mostly in smaller villages and towns) is bad, too (10 small direction signs at once right in front of the crossroads so that you have to stop to take your orientation....). This could be improved massively.
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Old November 27th, 2008, 10:52 AM   #1088
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The road numbering has some logic behind it, but it's too extensive.

For instance:

AP -> Autopista (toll usually)
A -> Autovía (state road)
C -> Catalunya (comunidad road)
B -> Barcelona (Provincial road)

These could all be motorways. Every Comunidad or Province has it's own prefix, resulting in numerous prefixes throughout the country. There's also some overlap, since an A-road can either be an Autovía of the central government, but also an "Andalucía" road, which also can be a motorway-grade road.
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Old November 27th, 2008, 07:30 PM   #1089
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Every Comunidad or Province has it's own prefix, resulting in numerous prefixes throughout the country. There's also some overlap, since an A-road can either be an Autovía of the central government, but also an "Andalucía" road, which also can be a motorway-grade road.
This issue has been covered upthread, and at the time it was suggested that a reliable way of distinguishing autopistas and autovías from lesser roads was to count the number of digits in the numerical part of the road designation. E.g. you can be sure the A-92 is an autovía without knowing whether it is part of the RCE or maintained by the Junta de Andalucía, and similarly the C-58 is an autovía. But is this rule universally respected by the autonomous communities, provinces, and municipalities? Could I, for example, run into a road with a number like Pa-1030 which turns out to be a motorway? If this is an impossibility, why? Is there an obligatory rule or convention which makes sure that motorway-standard roads receive numbers of one or two digits only?
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Old November 27th, 2008, 07:36 PM   #1090
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I think there are three-digit motorways too. For instance the CL-601 near Valladolid, A-376 near Sevilla or MU-312 near Cartagena.
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Old November 27th, 2008, 09:28 PM   #1091
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I think there are three-digit motorways too. For instance the CL-601 near Valladolid, A-376 near Sevilla or MU-312 near Cartagena.
I have done some checking and it appears CV-500 is another example (first 6 km is autovía, remaining 24 km is ordinary road).

The interesting thing is that Fomento has just advertised a contract (key 35-V-4940) to redo the signing on the A-7 and some other autovías in the vicinity of Valencia, including two highways which are referenced in the proyecto as the N-332 and N-335. But the plans make absolutely no sense in terms of the current road numbering as shown in Viamichelin and Google Maps. Instead, it looks like the contract will change the current V-31 to the N-332 and the current V-30 to the N-335. I don't know if this is a partial rollback of the 2005 numbering reform, though Spanish Wikipedia's article on the V-31 implies that this may be the case.
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Old November 27th, 2008, 09:32 PM   #1092
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Madrid also has quite some 3-digit Autovías along the western and southern side of the ciudad.
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Old November 27th, 2008, 10:21 PM   #1093
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Welcome to the crazy signals party !!!!

New signals for the Madrid regional roads

60.000 new signals for 2.600 km road network

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Old November 28th, 2008, 11:17 AM   #1094
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And if you think it can't get weirder they come up with individual, regional sign designs...

Of course there's a logic (or something similar) behind it, but it is just way too confusing with all the different numbers...
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Old November 28th, 2008, 04:26 PM   #1095
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Some more updates.

First, the most spectacular bridge u/c in Spain: The third access to Cádiz (in fuchsia). Cost: 300 M€.





Watch this, it explains the construction process: http://canales.lavozdigital.es/docum...ente-cadiz.htm




Quote:
Originally Posted by PabloCadiz View Post
Aqui os dejo unas imagenes de las obras publicadas a principios de Octubre en Diario de Cadiz.
























Second: New southern bypass for Bilbao. Cost: ~2,000 M€. Bilbao has lots of hills around it, so any train or road infrastructure needs many tunnels and viaducts.



Renders:









Pictures of the works (october 2008)








More details: http://bilbaoenconstruccion.nireblog...nante-supersur



Third: New SW bypass for Toledo. The landscape is much flatter in Toledo, as you can see.









More: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=993



Also, 30,5 km of new autovías have been opened in the last days: 8,5 in the A-21 and 22 in the A-67.


Bonus: A-67 near Palencia.
Quote:

By Victor @ Urbanity.es.
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Old November 29th, 2008, 02:54 AM   #1096
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I have done some checking and it appears CV-500 is another example (first 6 km is autovía, remaining 24 km is ordinary road).
The same goes for Mallorca, Ma-13 is both a highway and a normal road in the last 10 Kilometers. The same goes for Ma-1 and Ma-19, the future Ma-30 and others. So the relevant fact is the corridor and not the type of road.
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Old November 29th, 2008, 03:21 AM   #1097
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Welcome to the crazy signals party !!!!

New signals for the Madrid regional roads

60.000 new signals for 2.600 km road network

The colours are !!
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Old November 29th, 2008, 05:21 AM   #1098
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Madrileños, always having to do it their own way...
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Old November 29th, 2008, 01:36 PM   #1099
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Can't it be a bit simplier... ?
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Old November 29th, 2008, 04:55 PM   #1100
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I wonder what would Madrileños say if Catalans placed their flag in all road signs
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