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Old June 22nd, 2010, 10:59 PM   #1721
Slagathor
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For pronunciation purposes. In Dutch, "Compostela" would be pronounced "Compos-tay-la" whereas "Compostella" meets Spanish pronunciation. I don't think it's very commonly used, however. At least I don't recall ever seeing it before...

IJ started out as ii, as you say, but that was aaaages ago in Middle Dutch. To avoid consfusion with the u (since the dots on the ii's were usually left out), the second i was elongated. IJ as a letter (it is capitalized as such at the beginning of sentences or with placenames such as the river IJssel) was officialized (if that's a word) in 1804. It is the 25th letter of the Dutch alphabet, replacing the Y which does not exist in Dutch except in loan words.

EDIT: I've just realized this is terribly off-topic

Last edited by Slagathor; June 22nd, 2010 at 11:12 PM.
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Old June 22nd, 2010, 11:35 PM   #1722
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Quote:
EDIT: I've just realized this is terribly off-topic
Chris started it, so that makes it okay.

But wasn't the "ii/ij" actually pronounced as if it were written, in modern Dutch spelling, "ie", so that "Berliin/Berlijn" and "Pariis/Parijs" would have actually matched the German and French pronunciation (forgetting about the S in Paris which is silent in French)?
That's what I was trying (badly) to say: the "ij" represents an old double or long I which matched the German and French pronunciation in those names. As some point, for whatever reason, speakers of Dutch systematically, over the course of a couple of decades, switched that long-I pronunciation to the sound that "ij" has now. When that sort of change hits a language, it will affect every word that the affected sound is present in....

Okay, perhaps we should stop now.
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Old June 22nd, 2010, 11:40 PM   #1723
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i allways thought that IJ was read as "y" in "my"
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Old June 22nd, 2010, 11:55 PM   #1724
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i allways thought that IJ was read as "y" in "my"
No, its pronounced the same as the letter combination 'ei'. The words 'eis' (demand) and 'ijs' (ice) have the same pronounciation.
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Old June 23rd, 2010, 12:00 AM   #1725
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i allways thought that IJ was read as "y" in "my"
As an English-speaker who's tried to learn Dutch (I read it better than I understand it spoken, mostly because I don't get much opportunity to hear it), the "ij" sounds more like the diphthongized long A of English than like a long I. To me, Dutch "mij" sounds much closer to English "may" than to "my." So to get the sound of "Berlijn" in English spelling, it would be "Berlane." But a few centuries back, if I'm remembering correctly what I've read, it would have been pronounced "Berleen" (in English spelling). Which is what it sounds like in German too.

If we can come up with Spanish examples of this sort of thing - such as the fact that Zaragoza and Saragossa weren't that different at one point in time (would sound alike even today in most of Latin America, I think), we're less likely to be yelled at....
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Old June 23rd, 2010, 01:14 AM   #1726
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I don't really see the use of slightly altered exonyms anyway. In the Netherlands we say Berlijn, Londen and Parijs. It's not like Berlin, London and Paris are not understood by the Dutch.
Bayonne lies in the Basque Country, split between France and Spain that some claim to be indipendent from them.
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Old June 23rd, 2010, 07:31 AM   #1727
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
If we can come up with Spanish examples of this sort of thing - such as the fact that Zaragoza and Saragossa weren't that different at one point in time (would sound alike even today in most of Latin America, I think), we're less likely to be yelled at....

Zaragoza and Saragossa are pronounced exactly the same in all Latin American countries. Only spanish speakers from Spain differentiate the sounds between "S", "Z", and a soft "C".
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Old June 23rd, 2010, 12:05 PM   #1728
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Chris started it, so that makes it okay.

But wasn't the "ii/ij" actually pronounced as if it were written, in modern Dutch spelling, "ie", so that "Berliin/Berlijn" and "Pariis/Parijs" would have actually matched the German and French pronunciation (forgetting about the S in Paris which is silent in French)?
That's what I was trying (badly) to say: the "ij" represents an old double or long I which matched the German and French pronunciation in those names. As some point, for whatever reason, speakers of Dutch systematically, over the course of a couple of decades, switched that long-I pronunciation to the sound that "ij" has now. When that sort of change hits a language, it will affect every word that the affected sound is present in....

Okay, perhaps we should stop now.
I'm sending you a PM to prevent further off-topic talk in this thread
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Old June 23rd, 2010, 06:23 PM   #1729
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Quote:
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Only spanish speakers from Spain differentiate the sounds between "S", "Z", and a soft "C".
Taragota
spanish Z/C is one of the coolest sounds in all world's languages
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Old June 23rd, 2010, 06:45 PM   #1730
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Taragota
spanish Z/C is one of the coolest sounds in all world's languages
lol, in fact there's a big difference!
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Old June 25th, 2010, 01:42 PM   #1731
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Well, leave the Zaragoza/Saragossa thing.
This is the autovía A-23 near Huesca (My hometown! )


Click on image for full size.

BTW, today Donostia's bypass opens.
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Last edited by CNGL; July 5th, 2010 at 09:35 PM.
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Old June 25th, 2010, 02:28 PM   #1732
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A-8 Pendueles - Llanes will also open tomorrow according to Spanish Wikipedia.

edit: scrap that, it was 26-6-2011.

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; June 25th, 2010 at 02:39 PM.
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Old June 25th, 2010, 02:34 PM   #1733
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By the way, which number would the old AP-8 (signed as A-8) get near San Sebastián?
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Old June 25th, 2010, 02:36 PM   #1734
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I think it will remain as A-8. Or A-1/A-8... The section Pendueles-Llanes will open in 2011

I want to see A-2 all the way from Madrid to the French border. Now I know where build the A-2 between kilometerposts 630 and 675, but at kmpost 653 there is a golf course...
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Last edited by CNGL; July 5th, 2010 at 09:36 PM.
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Old June 25th, 2010, 02:53 PM   #1735
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
By the way, which number would the old AP-8 (signed as A-8) get near San Sebastián?
A8.
What I don't understand is:
They build the AP8 in order to end with traffic jams that normally take place in the A8, this is, they want to divert traffic from A8 to AP8. Well, that makes no sense at all, if they want to do that, wouldn't it be more logical to install the toll in the crowded road?

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Old June 25th, 2010, 03:00 PM   #1736
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I thought País Vasco didn't want to go with these "new" numbering of AP, A, etc.? They still have N-I, which is A-1 in the rest of Spain. A-8 is still signed as A-8, while it is a toll road (thus should be AP-8 all the way).
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Old June 25th, 2010, 03:08 PM   #1737
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I thought País Vasco didn't want to go with these "new" numbering of AP, A, etc.? They still have N-I, which is A-1 in the rest of Spain. A-8 is still signed as A-8, while it is a toll road (thus should be AP-8 all the way).
Well the truth is that they are not the ones who take the decision.
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Old June 25th, 2010, 08:04 PM   #1738
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But ChrisZwolle is right. And since Spain has given País Vasco a lot of authority in their own region, they do have the right to keep the road numbers like that.
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Old June 25th, 2010, 08:18 PM   #1739
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I thought País Vasco didn't want to go with these "new" numbering of AP, A, etc.? They still have N-I, which is A-1 in the rest of Spain. A-8 is still signed as A-8, while it is a toll road (thus should be AP-8 all the way).
There is one GOOD reason to don't name all the old N-1 has A-1: it don't fits autovia standars on Guipuzkoa, a sample:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

For A-8 they are slowly changing to AP-8 on some places.
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Old June 25th, 2010, 08:22 PM   #1740
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNGL View Post
Well, leave the Zaragoza/Saragossa thing.
This is the autovía A-23 near Huesca (My hometown! )


Click on image for full size.

BTW, today Donostia's bypass opens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TramSS View Post
Igual se sale un poco del tema pero, por qué no se señaliza el puerto y el Aeropuerto en las nueva señalización?

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Si quieres compatibilidad con estandares y seguridad, ¿pq recomiendas Firefox y no Opera?
If you want compatibility with standards and security, ¿why do you recomend firefox and not Opera?

The only truly secure system is one that is powered off, cast in a block of concrete and sealed in a lead-lined room with armed guards - and even then I have my doubts. Gene Spafford.
I am Basque, not Russian, the "Siberia" thing is a joke.
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