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Old May 30th, 2008, 04:50 PM   #201
derUlukai
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some pictures of the t185 3d webpreview that can be found HERE


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Old May 30th, 2008, 05:19 PM   #202
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Old May 30th, 2008, 06:01 PM   #203
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the tower looks just great
by the way - we just got ahead of the berlin thread in here - let`s celebrate
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Old May 30th, 2008, 07:13 PM   #204
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, absolutely wonderful tower...will fit damn perfect in the skyline
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Old May 30th, 2008, 08:29 PM   #205
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These are the three Skyline Plaza Towers and the Tower 185 behind them:

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Old May 30th, 2008, 08:40 PM   #206
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I like this new one. It has an elegant feel to it and is a great change from the typical glass tower going up. I also like the lowrise section at the base. Looking forward to when this is complete.

Anyone know when this will be finished?
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Old May 30th, 2008, 08:47 PM   #207
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As far as I know in 2010,...
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Old May 30th, 2008, 08:59 PM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyline_FFM View Post
As far as I know in 2010,...
Vivico says the following: "Der Bau-antrag wird im Frühsommer 2008 eingereicht. Ab August beginnt die Vorbereitung des Geländes, sodass die Arbeiten an der Baugrube im Herbst 2008 starten können. Das Sockelgebäude soll im Herbst 2010, der Turm selbst Ende 2011 fertig gestellt sein. Der Vermarktung der verbleibenden, etwa 30.000 qm Büroflächen im Tower 185 ist gestartet."

Translated that means:
a) Construction request to be handed in early Summer of 2008
b) Preparation of the site will commence in August 2008
c) Pit construction can begin in the Fall of 2008
d) Lowrise base will be completed in Fall of 2010
e) Tower will be completed end of 2011 (in 3.5 years!)
f) Marketing of the remaining 30,000 sqm has begun

Here are my 5 cents worth: The building has a novel form but the facade is a bit on the monotonous side. A good, but not great addition to the skyline.
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Old May 31st, 2008, 04:15 AM   #209
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What a disgrace of a design. Building looks like it's straight out of the 80's
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Old June 1st, 2008, 02:33 AM   #210
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Don't really like the new tower design too much. Reminds me somehow of a Casino resort.
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Old June 1st, 2008, 02:01 PM   #211
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Frankfurt has grown spectacularly. I love that city!
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Old June 2nd, 2008, 03:16 PM   #212
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frankfurt is undergoing a 50s renaissance and the architect mäckler is the biggest name in the city right now for neo modernist architecture.

the project slightly reminds me of the very early modern highrise buildings in germany from the 20s and 30s. and the base reminds me of monumental architecture of the speer era - atleast a bit. I don't like the glas element though - it really looks like 80s chique.

I hope that is enough of mäckler for the next couple of years. I don't want a third opernturm in the city.



anyway, it's a good filler. the area will change completely until 2011. a new cluster is emerging. considering that frankfurt right now only has 10 skyscrapers (over 150m) and in a couple of months there wil be atleast 5 new such towers u/c, I think we can call it a small boom.
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Old June 2nd, 2008, 05:38 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devilsadvocate View Post
Think London and Paris will pass Frankfurt pretty soon, if they haven't already.
As of June 2008, number of towers higher than 150 meters already built:
- Paris: 14
- London: 10
- Frankfurt: 9

It would be interesting to count how many towers higher than 150 meters have a reasonably good chance to be built by 2015 in each of these three cities.

EDIT: Sorry, it's 14 for Paris, not 13. I missed one tower at first.

Last edited by brisavoine; June 2nd, 2008 at 06:56 PM.
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Old June 2nd, 2008, 05:48 PM   #214
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that's very hard to predict. until 2011 frankfurt will have 5 more towers over 150m completed - that's for sure. but that's only 2011, and it only includes the projects, that are u/c or are about to start construction. there are a few more, that are planned to go ahead in the near future, but as long as there is no official construction confirmation, nobody can't say anything. having said that ... a few weeks ago nobody would have guessed that by the end of the year there is going to be 5 new towers over 150m u/c. the recent past has proved that frankfurt is good for a surprise.

personally I think frankfurt has reasonable chances of having 20 by 2015 (if the global economy doesn't break down) - it may not be enough to overtake paris, but it still means the compact skyline will double in 7 years.
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Old June 2nd, 2008, 06:36 PM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HD View Post
the recent past has proved that frankfurt is good for a surprise.
One thing to take into account, however, is that the Greater Frankfurt area has a stagnating population, whereas Paris and London have rapidly increasing populations, so logically there should be much less demand for new buildings in Frankfurt than in Paris and London in the coming years.

In the 5 years from Jan. 2002 to Jan. 2007 (mid-2001 to mid-2006 for London), these are the population increase that were registered in these three metro areas (definitions I'm using here: Paris = Paris LUZ, i.e. Île-de-France; London = London LUZ, i.e. Greater London + 42 districts around Greater London; Frankfurt = Regierungsbezirk Darmstadt):
- Paris: +401,000 inhabitants over these 5 years, i.e. a total increase of +3.6%
- London: +290,300, i.e. +2.5%
- Frankfurt: +26,054, i.e. +0,7%

Another interesting thing to consider is the increase in the number of jobs. I have this info for London and Paris, but not for Frankfurt. If you can find the info for Frankfurt, it would be great to compare. Ideally, if you can find the difference between the number of jobs in the Regierungsbezirk Darmstadt in 2007 and the number of jobs in the Regierungsbezirk Darmstadt in 2002 (not to be confused with people in employment... what we need is not how many residents of Regierungsbezirk Darmstadt are in employment, but how many people actually work in Regierungsbezirk Darmstadt). So if you can find that info let me know...
Quote:
Originally Posted by HD View Post
personally I think frankfurt has reasonable chances of having 20 by 2015 (if the global economy doesn't break down)
That would mean 6 new skyscrapers between 2011 and 2015. That seems highly unlikely.

For Paris I'd say there is a reasonable chance to have between 8 and 11 new towers higher than 150 meters by 2015 (8 without Signal Tower and the Hermitage Twin Towers, 11 if they are built). So in total that would be 22 to 25 towers higher than 150 meters by 2015. Four more (two at Neuilly Bridge, one in Issy, and one at Levallois bridge) are still hypothetical (i.e. they are being talked about, without anything definite at this stage).

For London I have no clue given that so many projects look uncertain now. We should ask Jeff and Wjfox for a most pessimistic and most optimistic estimate. Lol.
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Old June 2nd, 2008, 07:07 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
One thing to take into account, however, is that the Greater Frankfurt area has a stagnating population, whereas Paris and London have rapidly increasing populations, so logically there should be much less demand for new buildings in Frankfurt than in Paris and London in the coming years.

100% of the towers in Frankfurt are office and such office demand is not really dependent on population growth. Germanys overall economic situation is way more important. Most companies that build office towers in Frankfurt are highly international and don't really rely on the local population.
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And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Last edited by goschio; June 2nd, 2008 at 07:24 PM.
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Old June 2nd, 2008, 07:19 PM   #217
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well, the frankfurt metro area (and that's not only the regierungsbezirk darmstadt) grew over 400,000 people since the nineties...and small frankfurt has grown 8,000 alone last year ... population of frankfurt city proper is expected to reach the 700,000 level relatively soon. every single prediction of the past has been too low. there are thousands of units under construction right now in the city - that alone would give 20-30,000 new people within the next few years. the second thing is the trend of returning to the city ... the number of jobs is growing too - faster than the population btw. anyway, the population thing doesn't count really. frankfurt's population has been hovering around a certain level for ages and the demand for skyscrapers was still there. and even if you insist on this point - the population of frankfurt is not stagnating anyway. so the point is not valid.


and it's not very unlikely to get 5 (not 6) towers between 2011 and 2015. frankfurt will get 5 new towers over 150m between 2008 and 2011 (= 15 in 2011, I didnt include a 160m tower, that was announced just days ago and is supposed to be completed in 2010, because I don't think it is realistic). and that's only the one that are certain, meaning u/c or about to start construction. there are atleast 5 other towers, that could start any day - even though it's not likely they start in the next year, or the year after ...

Im being realistic. if I would take a very optimistic view, Id say its going to be 25 or 30 ... but that just wouldn't be realistic.
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Old June 2nd, 2008, 07:29 PM   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
As of June 2008, number of towers higher than 150 meters already built:
- Paris: 14
- London: 10
- Frankfurt: 9

It would be interesting to count how many towers higher than 150 meters have a reasonably good chance to be built by 2015 in each of these three cities.

EDIT: Sorry, it's 14 for Paris, not 13. I missed one tower at first.
200m towers....frankfurt has 4 and paris 0 ( at least in la defense )...but lets come back to topic that's no City vs. City Thread
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Old June 2nd, 2008, 08:16 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HD View Post
the frankfurt metro area (and that's not only the regierungsbezirk darmstadt) grew over 400,000 people since the nineties...
We're not in the nineties anymore, we are in the 2000s, and towards the end of them actually. Depopulation is now starting to affect West Germany too (after affecting East Germany for a long time already), and the population in the Greater Frankfurt area is stagnating as shown by official population figures from destatis. One would have to be blind not to see that it will have an influence on future construction. There is simply a slower economy and less demand for new buildings when a population is not growing, or worse when it is declining. Let's just try to be realistic about the future, that's all I'm saying.
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Originally Posted by ZZ-II View Post
200m towers....frankfurt has 4 and paris 0 ( at least in la defense )...
Skyscrapers are usually understood as towers above 150 meters (500 feet) at roof or spire height, that's why I used that gauge.
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Old June 2nd, 2008, 10:25 PM   #220
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Yes, depopulation starts to affect West Germany too. But it's limited to the north of the country (Niedersachsen, Schleswig-Holstein, northern Hesse). For the south of the state of Hesse, including Frankfurt Metro Area, it is predicted that the growth will continue the next decades.
And those predictions have even been too low the last years...
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