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Old May 24th, 2010, 08:20 PM   #21
Restless
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Railway fatalities comparison

Deaths per "billion passenger km" travelled in 2007

Germany 0.4
UK 0.3
France 0.2
EU Average 0.8

Source is a British parliament 2010 briefing paper below http://www.parliament.uk/briefingpap...snsg-02043.pdf

When I look at the chinese figures for 2007, I see 7 fatalities with overall passenger km of 721 billion passenger km which translates to:

China 0.009

That would mean the Chinese railway network is much safer than the system in Europe. Am I missing something?
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Old May 25th, 2010, 01:17 AM   #22
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Again, this is a material science issue.

The problem is that Chinese are still a decade or two behind the West in material science and they may not have produced rail that could withstand Saudi heat.

After all, China is a country that still cannot produce high strength automotive steel sheet needed to pass US and Eu crash test regulation and must import those from Japan, so I wouldn't put my faith in Chinese produced steel product, such as locomotive wheels, axles, and rail.

With Chinese, you are taking a gamble with people's lives. The problem is that people's lives aren't worth much in China and Chinese tend to think of the same with foreigner's lives.
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Old May 25th, 2010, 02:01 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
Again, this is a material science issue.

The problem is that Chinese are still a decade or two behind the West in material science and they may not have produced rail that could withstand Saudi heat.

After all, China is a country that still cannot produce high strength automotive steel sheet needed to pass US and Eu crash test regulation and must import those from Japan, so I wouldn't put my faith in Chinese produced steel product, such as locomotive wheels, axles, and rail.

With Chinese, you are taking a gamble with people's lives. The problem is that people's lives aren't worth much in China and Chinese tend to think of the same with foreigner's lives.
These comments are ill-informed and highly inaccurate. There are numerous pockets of excellence in each industry that do produce to world-class standards.

Those are the only words I will waste on the matter
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Old May 25th, 2010, 04:08 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless View Post
These comments are ill-informed and highly inaccurate.
They are extremely accurate.

Ever wonder why Chinese cars do so poorly on youtube crash test videos? Because Chinese automakers competing on price couldn't afford to use expensive imported steel to build their cars.

Quote:
There are numerous pockets of excellence in each industry that do produce to world-class standards.
Such as? I can't think of any. I had this debate with other Chinese posters elsewhere, but their ideas of finest Chinese brand products were considered to be cheap poor quality junks in the West, like Haier fridge and Lenovo laptops.

Chinese do a fine job when they work for foreigners, iPhone and iPad being an example.

Chinese do a poor job when they work for Chinese employers. Why? Because Chinese employers cut corners and have a low quality and business ethnics standard.
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Old May 25th, 2010, 10:11 AM   #25
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I believe there are highways and rail lines in China built across plains of shifting loess, they plant sod and build windbreaks along the ROW to mitigate this problem. Besides, between Riyadh and Mecca its more of a rocky basin type of desert, a reg? The big ergs, Rub-al-Khali and dune seas are to the south, correct?

Quote:
like Haier fridge and Lenovo laptops.
Honestly, shut up and stop being off-topic. FYI, I own a lenovo laptop

Last edited by zaphod; May 25th, 2010 at 10:27 AM.
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Old May 25th, 2010, 04:20 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaphod View Post
Honestly, shut up and stop being off-topic.
It's not off-topic since that was an illustration of Chinese concept of quality, which is different from Western concept.

Quote:
FYI, I own a lenovo laptop
So would you consider your Lenovo to be a high-quality laptop?
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Old May 25th, 2010, 06:23 PM   #27
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Temperature variations in Tibetan Plateau or Gobi Desert are more dramatic than those of Arabian Desert. I don't see any problem for Chinese. If anything, Chinese are the most experienced ones on this.
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Old May 25th, 2010, 07:12 PM   #28
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Quote:
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Temperature variations in Tibetan Plateau or Gobi Desert are more dramatic than those of Arabian Desert. I don't see any problem for Chinese. If anything, Chinese are the most experienced ones on this.
Do Chinese have high speed rail in Tibet or Gobi desert? I don't think so.

Margin of tolerance is a lot greater with conventional rail than with high speed rail.
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Old May 25th, 2010, 09:49 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
Do Chinese have high speed rail in Tibet or Gobi desert? I don't think so.
If you want to be a professional anti-Chinese activist (and devoting, like you do, your whole day to this cause) you should at least document a bit.
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Old May 25th, 2010, 09:58 PM   #30
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Is this thread about Saudi Railways or China bashing??
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Old May 25th, 2010, 10:07 PM   #31
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I put Hypermiller on ignore. Others should do it too, it's a great function.

On the Saudi HSR topic. What affect will sand have on the rails and its useful life? At such high speeds, even a little bit of sand residing on the rails can cause tons of friction and errosion to both the tracks and wheeles. At least i think so. Anyone have an idea?
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Old May 25th, 2010, 10:25 PM   #32
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I think having elevated tracks with walls on the side (as in CRH) will help prevent sand except from the most extreme sandstorms from going on to the tracks
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Old May 26th, 2010, 11:51 AM   #33
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The track will not have much problem with sand the bigger problem would be the trains since the motors and trans are air cooled.
If the sand is powdery it will no doubt mess up the filter and those systems.
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Old May 26th, 2010, 12:23 PM   #34
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I think the new Lanxin 350km/h railway faces a similar environmental challenge as it passes through a range of deserts, sandstorms and temperatures. Plus it looks like construction started about the same time as Haramain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanxin_High-Speed_Railway

"Construction work began on November 4, 2009. The 1,776-kilometre (1,104 mi) long railway will take 5 years to complete, of which, 795 km (494 mi) is in Gansu, 268 km (167 mi) in Qinghai and 713 km (443 mi) in Xinjiang. 31 stations will be built along the line. The project costs 143.5 billion yuan"

"The rail tracks in the section near Qilianshan Tunnel will be at 3600 meters above sea level, making the railway the highest high-speed railway in the world"

"Near Turpan, the railway will go through the famous 100-li wind region, where wind constantly blow in most days of a year. In 2007, strong wind in that area overturned a train on the south branch of Lanxin Railway, and four people were killed. A 67-km long wind-protection gallery will be built in this region"
----------

Here are some comments and a photo of the Turpan region where the railway is passing

http://www.johomaps.com/as/china/xin...s05/turpan.htm

"The average surface temperature range at Turpan is 43C in summer and -32C in winter"

"The surface of the ground is on average 50C in summer, although it can be as hot as 80C"

"58C = surface temperature, apparently it was a cool day!"


Last edited by Restless; May 26th, 2010 at 12:29 PM.
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Old May 26th, 2010, 01:07 PM   #35
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The truth is that China didn't develop a single mile of HSR on its own. All the technology was imported, then copied and re-branded as "Chinese", e.g.:

- Transrapid (Siemens) + Chinese rip-off maglev
- Xinshisu (ADtranz)
- CRH1 (Bombardier)
- CRH2 (Kawasaki Shinkansen family)
- CRH3 (Siemens)
- CRH5 (Alstom)
- Track technology imported from Germany
- Signal technology ERTMS (Bombardier)
and so on...

These are facts, unlike the Chinese propaganda. However, I'm sure that the Chinese can do a decent job in Saudi Arabia, as what they apply is European/North American technology that does work.
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Old May 27th, 2010, 03:01 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
The truth is that China didn't develop a single mile of HSR on its own. All the technology was imported, then copied and re-branded as "Chinese", e.g.:

- Transrapid (Siemens) + Chinese rip-off maglev
- Xinshisu (ADtranz)
- CRH1 (Bombardier)
- CRH2 (Kawasaki Shinkansen family)
- CRH3 (Siemens)
- CRH5 (Alstom)
- Track technology imported from Germany
- Signal technology ERTMS (Bombardier)
and so on...

These are facts, unlike the Chinese propaganda. However, I'm sure that the Chinese can do a decent job in Saudi Arabia, as what they apply is European/North American technology that does work.
Tell me which country can provide 350KM/H railway service? If you can't, please shut up.
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Old May 27th, 2010, 04:19 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David2009 View Post
Tell me which country can provide 350KM/H railway service? If you can't, please shut up.
Those who lack arguments, start to insult
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Old May 27th, 2010, 05:08 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
The truth is that China didn't develop a single mile of HSR on its own. All the technology was imported, then copied and re-branded as "Chinese", e.g.:

- Transrapid (Siemens) + Chinese rip-off maglev
- Xinshisu (ADtranz)
- CRH1 (Bombardier)
- CRH2 (Kawasaki Shinkansen family)
- CRH3 (Siemens)
- CRH5 (Alstom)
- Track technology imported from Germany
- Signal technology ERTMS (Bombardier)
and so on...

These are facts, unlike the Chinese propaganda. However, I'm sure that the Chinese can do a decent job in Saudi Arabia, as what they apply is European/North American technology that does work.
So??

This what exactly anyone who wants to reach a technological point does. If someone else has it, and dont mind selling it to you there is nothing wrong to acquire it.

Once you bought the technology, if you can developed it further you can rightfully claim it as your own design. This is how technology develops and how science go further.

China already markets its high speed rail track building capacity, in very close future it will start marketing signaling and rolling stock too.

China is the by far the biggest market. It has companies and R&D projects focused on this industry, it is only natural that it will shape the future of it too. If it somehow cannot then there is a failure and missed opportunity for China.
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Old May 27th, 2010, 05:59 PM   #39
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If you have shifting sands, then this looks like the way to handle it

----------

World’s Longest Desert Road

http://www.hottnez.com/worlds-longest-desert-road/

Desert, as we think is no more lifeless; it has become the world’s miracle! Yes, believe it or not, the Tarim Desert highway better known as Cross desert Highway has been declared as the world’s longest desert road from being buried by the sand. This highway was mainly built, using sand control meshing in 1995 to move oil from Tarim basin. Crossing the Taklamakan desert from North to South, this 552-kilometers highway links China National Highway314 and China National Highway 315 simultaneously.

To prevent the road from being buried by sand, Chinese authorities have built a 60-meter wide tree belt along the route with massive irrigation system. The building of the tree-belt with bushes and other vegetation has been done for better anchoring of sand with its roots. This protective green belt has not only improved the ecological environment but also played a vital role in the ecological prevention of sand.



You would be surprised to know that the beautification of this longest desert road has been done with two million rose willows, sacsaoul and buckthorn. An approximate amount of 50 tree varieties have been chosen that mainly includes small leaf dwarf trees that not only loose moisture slowly but are the best resistant to arid conditions. Now, you decide whether it is desert or something else!

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Old May 27th, 2010, 06:51 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
The truth is that China didn't develop a single mile of HSR on its own. All the technology was imported, then copied and re-branded as "Chinese", e.g.:

- Transrapid (Siemens) + Chinese rip-off maglev
- Xinshisu (ADtranz)
- CRH1 (Bombardier)
- CRH2 (Kawasaki Shinkansen family)
- CRH3 (Siemens)
- CRH5 (Alstom)
- Track technology imported from Germany
- Signal technology ERTMS (Bombardier)
and so on...

These are facts, unlike the Chinese propaganda. However, I'm sure that the Chinese can do a decent job in Saudi Arabia, as what they apply is European/North American technology that does work.
cool story? Here's another story

If I'm very rich, let's say rich enough to get your wife to sleep with me, she'll still be your wife and you'll probably still have a piece of paper to prove it. But what if I had bought her a nice new penthhouse for her to stay in with lots of cute little dresses and gems in the closet, and I visit this nice new penthhouse ever so often to with her as I wish at the time of my choosing. Then can I say that she is also my woman? Or should we simply choose to maintain the delusion that she's still exclusively yours?

... anyways back on topic...

So when are they closing the bid and who else is bidding aginst
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Last edited by UD2; May 27th, 2010 at 06:56 PM.
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