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Old January 20th, 2011, 03:18 PM   #381
Baron Hirsch
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Thank you, let us hope that we can save what there is to save.
Meanwhile, some rail activists have posted images of the train sheds at Kalamata on the Peleponnese, one of the lines due to be closed down. The workers from the shed have already been posted elsewhere, and the trains, some of them only 7 years old, are left to rot or be vandalized. The activists ask for further circulation of these pictures to raise awareness for the investments, rolling stock and infrastructure that is laid to waste by the planned measures at OSE.
For detailed description/debate see
http://www.drehscheibe-foren.de/fore...php?30,5215375 (in German)
or
http://www.amnizia.com/forum/viewtop...=3011&start=60 (in Greek)
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Old January 21st, 2011, 02:00 AM   #382
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On the other hand, the Patras suburban service (also using the Peloponnese narrow gauge network arround the city) seems to be going rather well, with the metric Stadler Railbuses recently added to the fleet. This 18:11 service from the suburbs to Patras Railway station, according to railfan Vasileios Gklavas who took the photo very recently, was almost full, carrying 120 passengers circa. Patras suburban trains run every hour in each direction:


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Old January 29th, 2011, 03:12 PM   #383
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pictures from kalamata are shocking!
I imagine illegal immigrants make toilet of them

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Old January 30th, 2011, 03:29 AM   #384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RelaxInPireaus View Post
pictures from kalamata are shocking!
I imagine african, pakistani and afghan people make toilet of them
Hey what's that supposed to mean? That seems pretty racist..
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Old January 31st, 2011, 03:22 AM   #385
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Greece will now be the only country in continental Europe besides Albania that runs no international passenger services.
Not true! You're forgetting San Marino and Andorra :-p
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Old January 31st, 2011, 10:09 AM   #386
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Not true! You're forgetting San Marino and Andorra :-p
I mean: countries which have a rail link and don't use it. Strictly speaking that includes the Vatican, but come on, none of these make for a favorable comparison. Greece is by far the largest of these countries, and it is (for the moment) the richtest country in Southeast Europe, and its railways and other public services should be up to that standard, and if not, then the country's citizens had better do something about it.

But let us not dwell on the gloomy comparisons. For the moment the international trains are still operating, as are the local trains listed for cancellation, thanks to public pressure not to dismantle OSE. Keep up the good work!
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Old February 4th, 2011, 04:05 PM   #387
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Thanks for the clean sweap, dear editors!
Back to topic: the Turkish Railways website announced today that the Salonica - Constantinople Philia-Express will be cancelled as of 13 February. I suspect this the other international trains from Salonica will be cancelled simultaneously. In effect it seems Greece will restrict itself to running local trains out of Salonica, Athens and Patras and someday maybe the occasional, artifically slow train between those three cities, but not more than would offend the bus mafia. This is truly sad. I hope someday somewhere somebody will reverse the process, but am not very optimistic.
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Old February 5th, 2011, 06:52 PM   #388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
I mean: countries which have a rail link and don't use it. Strictly speaking that includes the Vatican, but come on, none of these make for a favorable comparison. Greece is by far the largest of these countries, and it is (for the moment) the richtest country in Southeast Europe, and its railways and other public services should be up to that standard, and if not, then the country's citizens had better do something about it.

But let us not dwell on the gloomy comparisons. For the moment the international trains are still operating, as are the local trains listed for cancellation, thanks to public pressure not to dismantle OSE. Keep up the good work!
I don't see the point of this "activism" if the country has to face tough choices, financially speaking. If such lines can be kept open without subsidies, operated by a private company, then so be it. If not, and if Greece is facing - as it is - an unprecedented financial and budget crisis, there is no way around it without massive cuts. So it's better to save the profitable part of the system and keep improving it than overstretch resources over a large network the country cannot afford, rendering services in the whole country poor, unreliable and the network full of back-log maintenance.

As for being "the only European country without intl. pass. rail traffic", I see it as a concern only for rail fans worried about memes and fact-book achievement. Portugal and Spain have little international traffic, and services between both had been severely cut since the late 90's, as were 3/4 of once-running Italy-Austria relations, and the World (or Europe) didn't end, and the sky didn't fall over our heads.

Some of the comments here look like if Greece were about to depopulate some islands or burn down whole villages, which is obviously not the case - all cities will remain reachable by buses and, of course, cars.
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Old February 7th, 2011, 08:53 PM   #389
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Portugal and Spain have little international traffic, and services between both had been severely cut since the late 90's, as were 3/4 of once-running Italy-Austria relations, and the World (or Europe) didn't end, and the sky didn't fall over our heads.
Thatīs not true.

There has not been any kind of severe cuts in rail passenger service between Spain and Portugal in the late 1990s.
Only one train per day was cut between Madrid and Lisbon in the 1990s, and thatīs it, and that was because it was rather empty.
And now in 2011, the Portuguese railways cut two regional trains to the Spanish Badajoz border because they are rather empty too.
All other trains (Talgo night train Madrid-Lisbon, Sud-Expresso night train Hendaye-Lisbon/Oporto, and the daily regional trains Vigo-Oporto) continue to circulate like always.

Itīs just that rail passenger service between Spain and Portugal was always small.
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Old February 13th, 2011, 10:52 PM   #390
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Spain and Portugal are building several high-speed lines between their two countries, and Spain is building connection with France.

Shutting down train services (so that people have no choice but to use expensive buses), and jacking up the price of the remaining services will end up reducing mobility in Greece. This will mean growth is depressed and will make it harder to reduce the deficit.
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Old February 14th, 2011, 01:58 AM   #391
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Quote:
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Spain and Portugal are building several high-speed lines between their two countries,
Not true either. Only one line is being built, and only on the Spanish side for now. The rest is just a bunch of sheets of paper.

Quote:
and Spain is building connection with France.
Thatīs true, instead.

Quote:
Shutting down train services (so that people have no choice but to use expensive buses), and jacking up the price of the remaining services will end up reducing mobility in Greece. This will mean growth is depressed and will make it harder to reduce the deficit.
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Old February 14th, 2011, 11:07 AM   #392
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As of yesterday, all international trains from and to Greece have stopped running.
I think we can agree that this is a far more dismal situation than in Spain, Italy, or other comparable countries.
Otherwise I would like to second the quoted last sentence of the post above.
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Old February 16th, 2011, 02:44 PM   #393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tagnuzlsx View Post
Shutting down train services (so that people have no choice but to use expensive buses), and jacking up the price of the remaining services will end up reducing mobility in Greece. This will mean growth is depressed and will make it harder to reduce the deficit.
It is hard to make such peremptory assumptions without knowing the financials of the service, its (real) financial books. If the service is so expensive and/or irrelevant (e.g., carrying a thin proportion of overall traffic that has other ways to find its way), it could be shut and few would miss it.

Maybe more competition in the bus market and lower gas taxes can push more road mobility. Again, I don't know the numbers of usage in the closed lines, and I don't know the details of their cost structures.

Sometimes, a rail system is designed is such a way it will be a permanent money-losing machine. Sometimes rail systems can start paying at least their operational costs if they are improved, but not always. Some systems just can't compete with road transport.
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Old March 13th, 2011, 06:16 PM   #394
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Livadia Station


IC 53 before Livadia station


IC54


1520 AEG from Athens to Stilida
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Old March 14th, 2011, 12:17 AM   #395
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1520 AEG from Athens to Stilida
My God ... How do they allow graffiti on trains, in this style?
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Old March 14th, 2011, 01:02 AM   #396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I don't see the point of this "activism" if the country has to face tough choices, financially speaking. If such lines can be kept open without subsidies, operated by a private company, then so be it. If not, and if Greece is facing - as it is - an unprecedented financial and budget crisis, there is no way around it without massive cuts. So it's better to save the profitable part of the system and keep improving it than overstretch resources over a large network the country cannot afford, rendering services in the whole country poor, unreliable and the network full of back-log maintenance.

.
Why not shut down all of the unprofitable roads as well? That would be all of them though.

And I really can't believe that you would argue for a reduction in the gas tax in a country facing massive budget deficits. Cut rail service and make driving easier. What a joke.
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Old March 14th, 2011, 01:29 AM   #397
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Hello to everyone,

I've been following this thread for some time now but this is my first time posting. I am really interested in the modernisation works of the railway system and would like to contribute to this thread which is a very good source of information concerning these works.
I've noticed a lot of people have expressed an interest to see the progress of the works in Larissa Station so last Friday I paid a visit to the area to see and take pictures of the current situation. The works are obviously meant to solve just practical needs and are weak in architectural terms. I remember reading in a newspaper that this is a temporary solution until a complete solution is found for the development of the station. Recent publications talk about the transformation of five main train stations, Athens included, into malls (http://ypodomes.com) a claim that might soon be materialised given the commitment to purify the finances of National Railways and the recent developments within the EU according to which Greece will have to find ways to raise money from, among others, the development of state property and privatisations.


Views from the pedestrian overpass leading to the old Peloponnisos Station



Views from the South of the station


Looking South

An AEG approaching the Station from the South (Train graffiti is appalling)





More views from the South. In an earlier post [email protected] said that the unfinished bases for pillars appearing in these pictures could be the start of foundation for the Tombazis roof. I hope so too but I fear they are just the bases for a pedestrian overpass. I am not sure but there are some similar ones on the other end of the platforms (pointed with red arrows in a picture following) and according to the design they are far off the area the roof will cover. If you are interested to see more pictures of the Tombazis project you can visit http://www.tombazis.com/ and go to Architecture> Public Buildings>Railway Station in the window that pops up when you choose your preferred language on the home page.



More views of the new platforms

You can see part of the underground areas from the side of the pedestrian overpass.


A closer view of the platforms under the snow-capped Parnitha Mountain. (The pedestrian bridge you can see at the background is from where I took the rest of the pictures).

Views of the new platforms from the North of the Station. The red arrows point to the pending bases for what I think will be a new overpass linking the platforms.

A wider view of the works. The station is to the left.

Looking North off the station.

Closer views of the new platforms.

The central platform looks aligned with the old Peloponnisos Station at the background!

Finally two pictures from the metro station under Larissa Station. You can see to the right what looks like a temporary wall on the platform probably waiting the direct connection with the train station as it has been mentioned before in this thread.

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Old March 14th, 2011, 02:45 AM   #398
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Why not shut down all of the unprofitable roads as well? That would be all of them though.

And I really can't believe that you would argue for a reduction in the gas tax in a country facing massive budget deficits. Cut rail service and make driving easier. What a joke.
Rail fascism leads nowhere in real life.

If you read carefully, I am NOT suggesting closing the tracks, just having the government off the business of running trains. If we were to compare with roads, it would be like I arguing to gov't shutting down bus routes and retiring vehicles from service, not closing the highways themselves!!! If I were arguing about air transport, it would be like saying a state-owned airline should be sold off and routes cut, not that airports should be shut down.

There is a difference between infrastructure and operation. You keep the infrastructure opens because that is, usually, a public service government should be in charge of. However, operating vehicles, setting schedules, hiring drivers/pilots/engineers/conductors and, gosh, ticket clerks, is a matter of private business, and Greece is learning, the very hard way unfortunately, how excessive government intervention and overgrown bureaucracies can bring a country to a serious crisis.
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Old March 14th, 2011, 11:41 AM   #399
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There is a difference between infrastructure and operation.
Only on non-public or (partially) on long distance public transport services (like airplanes).
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Old March 15th, 2011, 09:39 AM   #400
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My God ... How do they allow graffiti on trains, in this style?
The Greek organization of Railways,no has money to clean the trains.The trains stop at points without security and the boys go for "fun".The Greek goverment no cares about the trains.Only for the buses.Due to economical crisis,many schedules were stop in western Macedonia,Peloponisos,Thesalia.The problem in Greece no is the grafity,the problem is we don't have trains!All the trains are crowed with stupid "art" of grafity.
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