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Old March 22nd, 2013, 06:29 AM   #1201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Munwon View Post
Seoul has no soul It has no real plan....
Seoul has a soul.
Seoul is not an ordinary city, which our ancestors have put their heart and soul into this city for almost 600 years.
Even small back alleys in Seoul have old juicy stories and have recorded people's history in it.
That is why I don't want to see a kind of souless collection in Seoul.
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 07:16 PM   #1202
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Seoul has a soul.
Seoul is not an ordinary city, which our ancestors have put their heart and soul into this city for almost 600 years.
Even small back alleys in Seoul have old juicy stories and have recorded people's history in it.
That is why I don't want to see a kind of souless collection in Seoul.
I may agree with you if Seoul's city regulations such as limiting heights of new buildings to preserve the Olds of Seoul have helped out Seoul to be admirable in terms of style, neatness, livability or environment. I do feel that their management of the City has been rather ineffective and mostly failing. Bring back the old city mayor Oh. He's got some good ideas.
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Old March 24th, 2013, 03:24 AM   #1203
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I do feel that their management of the City has been rather ineffective and mostly failing. Bring back the old city mayor Oh. He's got some good ideas.
You correct! I'm 100% gree with you

Frankly speaking though I'm seoulian... Seoul is not beautiful city. Beautyful is adorable kyoto or singapor or german/ north west europe scandabia city. That is true. CBD and yeuido Seoul is ellegance and beautiful but outside it is terrible and disorder and noisy and dirty like a idiot moneky mayor.

Also Seoul's history is not 600 years BUT 900 years ok?(if you agree with some BAKGAE country then extend until 2000years)
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Old March 24th, 2013, 03:37 AM   #1204
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Today news

-KORAIL will not give up tipleones(111floors)
Actually korail want to cancelled tipleones but some company(probably SAMSUNG) ask to "do not cancelled landmark tower

So i'm guess it is most probably senarios which is tipleones rise but commie ugly apartment Remain in front of han river.
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Old March 24th, 2013, 03:57 AM   #1205
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most probable development scenario
Behold ugly commie apartment due to monkey mayor
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Old March 24th, 2013, 04:00 AM   #1206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inno4321 View Post


most probable development scenario
Behold ugly commie apartment due to moneky mayor
In time those commie blocks will be torn down.
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Old March 24th, 2013, 06:04 AM   #1207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inno4321 View Post
You correct! I'm 100% gree with you

Frankly speaking though I'm seoulian... Seoul is not beautiful city. Beautyful is adorable kyoto or singapor or german/ north west europe scandabia city. That is true. CBD and yeuido Seoul is ellegance and beautiful but outside it is terrible and disorder and noisy and dirty like a idiot moneky mayor.

Also Seoul's history is not 600 years BUT 900 years ok?(if you agree with some BAKGAE country then extend until 2000years)
I really have to say I don't agree with you. I think this attitude is all confused, as if the only way a city can look nice is if it has a long, shiny history behind it, carefully preserved yet augmented with glitzy modernity.

First of all, Seoul does have a long history, but a lot of it was destroyed by the Japanese and the Korean War, which is a genuine tragedy. Second of all, Koreans should be proud that the last century was so difficult for them yet they managed to make it through. I know Seoul's commie blocks aren't pretty to the eye, but they're fascinating sociologically and anthropologically, the sort of thing that people just write off us ugly, untamed urbanity when in fact they represent completely organic growth of the rapid, yet managed, kind that most cities experience only in their best, most vibrant years.

I won't say that you find what's typically considered a beautiful city in a medium-scale view of much of the city--looking at neighborhood after neighborhood of commie blocks. But, if you look at individual streets, or entire districts, or the city as a whole, it is genuinely stunning.

Be proud of your city; it is an incredible place.
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Old March 24th, 2013, 06:12 AM   #1208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inno4321 View Post


most probable development scenario
Behold ugly commie apartment due to monkey mayor
Don't call him monkey mayor!
You've NEVER changed.
You always end up putting blame on current mayor in any circumstances.

First, you have no right to mock a person publicly here in SCC.
If you want to criticize his policy, you can do it properly and do it in right ways, NOT LIKE THIS, NOT IN THE PERSONAL WAYS.
Keep calling a person monkey is so childish and immature.

Unlike what you said, these says, most people says that Oh, se-hoon, the former mayor, has all responsibility of the current situation, not current mayor of Seou. (Even though I don't believe everything from the media)

Even the local people who live in those ugly commieblock in the picture put the blame on Oh, se-hoon, NOT CURRENT MAYOR.


Lastly, I don't want to debate this any further. This is going to be the flame war at the end as you are utterly unbending
Just suit yourself.

SOURCE :
http://www.nocutnews.co.kr/Show.asp?IDX=2435650
http://www.asiae.co.kr/news/view.htm...31610103218712
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Old March 24th, 2013, 06:51 AM   #1209
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Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
I really have to say I don't agree with you. I think this attitude is all confused, as if the only way a city can look nice is if it has a long, shiny history behind it, carefully preserved yet augmented with glitzy modernity.

First of all, Seoul does have a long history, but a lot of it was destroyed by the Japanese and the Korean War, which is a genuine tragedy. Second of all, Koreans should be proud that the last century was so difficult for them yet they managed to make it through. I know Seoul's commie blocks aren't pretty to the eye, but they're fascinating sociologically and anthropologically, the sort of thing that people just write off us ugly, untamed urbanity when in fact they represent completely organic growth of the rapid, yet managed, kind that most cities experience only in their best, most vibrant years.

I won't say that you find what's typically considered a beautiful city in a medium-scale view of much of the city--looking at neighborhood after neighborhood of commie blocks. But, if you look at individual streets, or entire districts, or the city as a whole, it is genuinely stunning.

Be proud of your city; it is an incredible place.
I see aquaticko. Your opinions make a sense. As you know i'm one of best seoul lover. You know "love and hate is co-existence together". I wish to ice break nationalism or self praise concern their own city. Especailly i'm very nervious concern IBD project. Also i think seoul's best beauty area is CBD(i thinks CBD area is one of best landscape in the world. i'm guarantee) others place is so disappointed to me.
Bytheway thanks for your advice
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Old March 24th, 2013, 07:23 AM   #1210
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Koreans can be short-sighted and selfish when it comes to the public projects. As a case and point, when CheongGaeChoen project was first envisioned and the demolition work began, the merchants in the area were up in arms against it. After the work was finally finished and their business started to pick up so much as the area became a magnet for millions of poeple from everywhere, the merchants seem to be as quiet as a church mouse now.
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Old March 24th, 2013, 03:08 PM   #1211
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Koreans can be short-sighted and selfish when it comes to the public projects. As a case and point, when CheongGaeChoen project was first envisioned and the demolition work began, the merchants in the area were up in arms against it.
That is what i'm saying.......Exactly. If now seoul monkey mayor, CheongGaeChoen project would can not finished and probably cancelled already.

IBD project is second CheongGaeChoen project, unfortunately "short-sighted and selfish" will be block this great project.(You know SAEWOON GREEN AVENUE/HYUNDAI GBC/HAN RIVER RENACIANCE/nodul opera house PROJECT cancelled with same reason)
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Old March 24th, 2013, 04:53 PM   #1212
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But like I said, we're not really talking about the wants and needs that Korean people are placing on this project.

There simply isn't the demand for this kind of space in Seoul from within Korea or outside; it's hard to justify a project of this size and expense anywhere in the world. It's no shame or fault of the Korean people that this project was so massive and expensive; it's just a bunch of companies who prepared a project that was maybe suitable to pre-2008 crisis tastes, but is now wildly out of scale. The obvious solution is a gradual redevelopment of Yongsan, but even then, there probably won't be demand for this much space in towers of this size in the near future, if ever.

People say all the time that it doesn't really make economic sense to build towers taller than ~50 floors, so it's no wonder that a project composed almost exclusively of towers that size, and much, much greater, should fail.

Give us a plan of towers between ~100m and ~250m, and maybe ~400m for the landmark, designed by Koreans, please, and then I'd be much more surprised and disappointed to see the project fail.
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Old March 25th, 2013, 12:08 AM   #1213
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Quote:
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But like I said, we're not really talking about the wants and needs that Korean people are placing on this project.

There simply isn't the demand for this kind of space in Seoul from within Korea or outside; it's hard to justify a project of this size and expense anywhere in the world. It's no shame or fault of the Korean people that this project was so massive and expensive; it's just a bunch of companies who prepared a project that was maybe suitable to pre-2008 crisis tastes, but is now wildly out of scale. The obvious solution is a gradual redevelopment of Yongsan, but even then, there probably won't be demand for this much space in towers of this size in the near future, if ever.

People say all the time that it doesn't really make economic sense to build towers taller than ~50 floors, so it's no wonder that a project composed almost exclusively of towers that size, and much, much greater, should fail.

Give us a plan of towers between ~100m and ~250m, and maybe ~400m for the landmark, designed by Koreans, please, and then I'd be much more surprised and disappointed to see the project fail.
Right aquaticko. IBD project was suitable to pre2008 world finacial crisis.
Even IFC seoul struggle with "vacant ratio" though it is temporal phenomenom.
But we have to remember korean political situation which is "SU DO GUN GU JAE BUB: law of ristriction and suppress against Seoul meropolitan"

Accordding to the "SU DO GUN GU JAE BUB", Now seoul under control for "city's growth and investment".
University or college can not to built new campus in seoul/Any big company can not make a new factory or head officie in seoul/Even about 200 public company and ministry government officie force move to suburban from seoul.

If SU DO GUN GU JAE BUB expire, then IBD no doubt in project success, Archiopelago 21 or 1000m landmark tower can to built without "worry economical expect or demand". Now seoul suffer under SU DO GUN GU JAE BUB. KOREA Goverment do not allow any population attraction facility in seoul

I don't know london or Tokoy(i heard that tokyo give up SU DO GUN GU JAE BUB 20years ago), but seoul discriminate by SU DO GUN GU JAE BUB.

Therefor many expert agree with this weird situation, so they ask to govement to make IBD area as "FREE SU DO GUN GU JAE BUB area"
This is news report http://news.mk.co.kr/newsRead.php?year=2013&no=215905
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Old March 25th, 2013, 01:43 AM   #1214
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If I understand correctly, it's a set of laws which restrict development to a particular size and kind. I agree with you that those should be (mostly) removed, except for laws which protect the environment and the poor. But even with only those sorts of restrictions in place, it's almost never a good idea to develop such large buildings if there isn't demand for them.

Even if you think that having a really large, flashy development is good for tourism and international attention, which I agree it can be, I don't think that this kind of development is right for Seoul. Of course, I don't live in Seoul; I only visited for a few months two years ago. But it's a city I pay very close attention to, and I just wonder if the sort of developments that you seem to want would be right for this city. But, you'd know at least as well as I do, probably better.

I just wish that Koreans could learn to embrace the chaos and imperfection of their modern society, which is exemplified in Korean cities, or work earnestly towards fixing it. This project feels like neither of those.
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Old March 25th, 2013, 03:09 AM   #1215
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If I understand correctly, it's a set of laws which restrict development to a particular size and kind. I agree with you that those should be (mostly) removed, except for laws which protect the environment and the poor. But even with only those sorts of restrictions in place, it's almost never a good idea to develop such large buildings if there isn't demand for them.

Even if you think that having a really large, flashy development is good for tourism and international attention, which I agree it can be, I don't think that this kind of development is right for Seoul. Of course, I don't live in Seoul; I only visited for a few months two years ago. But it's a city I pay very close attention to, and I just wonder if the sort of developments that you seem to want would be right for this city. But, you'd know at least as well as I do, probably better.

I just wish that Koreans could learn to embrace the chaos and imperfection of their modern society, which is exemplified in Korean cities, or work earnestly towards fixing it. This project feels like neither of those.
Second Thought, sometimes foreigner much better understand seoul's charm than seoul citizens.
I agree with you. Frankly speaking I'm As born seoulian(korean citizen), i wish seoul become more luxury and futurestic city than now.
Sometimes we(i) forget seoul's real beauty.Probably your opinions make a sense which seoul is enough and already charming city.
Yes this is time for pause because seoul is so fast changed. Also i felt "Beauty in the chaos and imperfection" in manila.

Bytheway good news is KORAIL will not cancelled 111floors tripleones.
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Old March 25th, 2013, 04:44 AM   #1216
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I don't know much about Seoul as i have only visited once for vacation but i can say for such a big city, it is quite beautiful. With the tragic history that has occurred in the last 100 years, everything that has transformed in the last few decades represents the fast modern changes that Koreans have been through.

And now with changes in building super skyscrapers in the city, i don't see that as a bad thing as long as its economically viable and will benefit Korea and its citizens.
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Old March 25th, 2013, 04:57 AM   #1217
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Very futuristic and wonderful! I personally like the plan besides what somebody said about not being Seoul-ish all rather South Korean!
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Old March 25th, 2013, 02:51 PM   #1218
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Originally Posted by architec101 View Post
Koreans can be short-sighted and selfish when it comes to the public projects. As a case and point, when CheongGaeChoen project was first envisioned and the demolition work began, the merchants in the area were up in arms against it. After the work was finally finished and their business started to pick up so much as the area became a magnet for millions of poeple from everywhere, the merchants seem to be as quiet as a church mouse now.
Do you really know what happened after CheongGaeChoen restoration?

Firstly, as for the merchants, their business became on a downturn since then. Most of the merchants lost their jobs or even the survivors' business also have been severely declining in this area.
Some of them had to move into luxurious Garden Five which is located outside of heart of the city as a compensation measures for inhabitants.
But they also were doomed failure as they lost their regular customers
Do you know why they are as quiet as a church mouse now? Because they are dying of a sudden slack in bussiness after CheongGaeChoen restoration.

Only rich merchants such as restaurants or coffee shops owners near the stream are driving a roaring trade and some enterprises like LOTTE seized the opportunity to bulid new luxurious apartment blocks like CheongGaeChoen Lotte castle( They are the one who were quiet and smiled silently hoping for a windfall while the poor merchants in the area were up in arms against it )

Secondly, it is true that CheongGaeChoen is drawing millions visitors a year.
However, the cost of maintenance has been skyrocketed.
An astronomical amount of money went into the CheongGaeChoen.
Do you know how much electrical bills costs for running CheongGaeChoen?
It costs an arm and a leg, more than 1,640,000 won a day according to the DATA( 2011 )
All money comes from Seoul citizen's wallet. It's tax!
It maybe looks beautiful to the eyes and it also seems perfectly illustrious and distinguished achievements for the citizens, green envorment for the future or Lee, Myeongbak, former president.
But it's very expensive and it is actually not green at all. It's just a man-made artificial stream which actually imposed a heavy burden on next Seoul mayor, Oh, se-hoon at those days, even now.

We sometimes need to realise that there are different sides of the same coin.
The project of CheongGaeChoen is like, inevitably, two sides of the same coin.
We easily see only just one side(bright side), as the stars are still there, but the light from the sun is too strong for us to see them.

Source
http://www.ajunews.com/common/redire...20110904000174

Last edited by citypia; March 25th, 2013 at 03:59 PM.
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Old March 25th, 2013, 03:21 PM   #1219
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By the way, I am very HAPPY to see that all of you discuss it nicely without mudsling.
Especially, I am deeply impressed by aquaticko who is well-mannered, courteous and thoughtful.
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Old March 25th, 2013, 08:56 PM   #1220
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By the way, I am very HAPPY to see that all of you discuss it nicely without mudsling.
Especially, I am deeply impressed by aquaticko who is well-mannered, courteous and thoughtful.
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