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Old April 17th, 2010, 10:44 AM   #3041
H123Laci
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaaRoy View Post
One incredible feature of the road network is that the recommended route between the Czech Rep. and Kosice, Slovakia leads you practically in front of my house in Central Budapest.

and who do you think goes this way?

check the suggested routes:

across budapest: 586km : 6h:5min
across zilina/poprad: 450km : 6h:8min

who do you think makes a 136km detour for 3 minutes advantage?

and the travel time on the latter route continously reduces as the D1 motorway construction goes ahead.
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Old April 17th, 2010, 12:07 PM   #3042
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Originally Posted by gmbh View Post
I guess the first map is about traffic density in 2007, but about what is the 2nd map ?
traffic density and patter doesnt change quickly so that diagram of 2007 is quite uptodate...


Quote:
gramercy, the service sector is for who ? for local people in budapest, for tourists etc...
not only for budapest but for the whole country.
bank, logistic and service centers services the whole country...

(and this is a SMALL country (10M people), it doesnt recquire many centers)


Quote:
they have M1 and another motorways...budapest needs no other motorways but good suburban public transportation for many people in agglomeration who work, study, shop in BP. or do you want to build motorway to every village near BP ? that´s ridiculous.

sorry, but this is bullshit...

BP and its agglomeration needs M0 as a full circle, needs M10, needs full profile M2 and many new main road/rural road bypasses and connections...


you cant solve this problems ONLY with public transportation.

there are 11 railway line heading toward BP operating almost full capacity and transporting 70.000 commuters daily.

but there are 400.000 commuters travelling by car daily!!!

how do you want to transport them with PT???

do you want to build 50!! new railway lines???

thats total nonsence.


Quote:
so I think the most important motorways to build are now in countryside - M8-M4 with connection to transylvania motorway U/C. there are sufficient traffic density and significant cities.

M4 is really important, but M8 is not...

for some decade upgraded main roads are enough in that corridor...

Quote:
this "middle motorway" takes many cars from line M1-M0-M3

and how "MANY"?

4.000?
from the 100.000 on the M0-south???

that would be quite an alleviation!
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Old April 17th, 2010, 12:18 PM   #3043
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M8 would go a long way towards solving any congestion on M0 for a very long time... not to mention it will prevent people from Szeged or Romania heading towards Balaton, Italy, southern France or Spain from making a needless detour - on a congested ring-road of a major European metropolis no less.

This is one of those situations where Budapesters are making their own lives worse by congesting their own ring motorway through neglect of a decent West-East connection through the south of the country (or at least the middle).
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Old April 17th, 2010, 01:03 PM   #3044
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Originally Posted by wyqtor View Post
M8 would go a long way towards solving any congestion on M0 for a very long time...
two quotes:

1. "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." by Albert Einstein.

2. "Learn, learn, learn" by V.I. Lenin.


1. AADT of M0 south is 100.000

How many cars do you think the M8 would take away from this volume?
(and what is your explanation for your estimate?)


2. AADT of 100.000 is NOTHING on a metropolis ringroad which is part of an international transit route.

check the A2 in The Netherlands...

it carries much more than 100.000 a day and it is under widening (not bypassing):

A2 Amsterdam - Utrecht 2x3 to 2x5
A2 Everdingen - Deil 2x2 to 2x4
A2 Den Bosch 2x2 to 4x2
A2 Eindhoven 2x3 to 4x2
A2 tunnel Maastricht 2x2 at grade to 4x2 (pending)
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Old April 17th, 2010, 01:44 PM   #3045
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yeah, I'm always fascinated by the argument that the M4-M8 would relieve M0

even (!) if it takes away 10-20-50.000 AADT, the fact remains, that the DEMAND FOR MOBILITY will increase 2x-3x-4x as the country and the neighbouring countries get 2x-3x-4x richer

so there will be plenty of demand around and inside Budapest, and that is why if you want to relieve the M0 south, you should advocate for the Galvani and Albertfalvi bridges and their connecting roads
and to make interchanges within Budapest grade-separatad, that's the biggest drawback today
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Old April 17th, 2010, 05:36 PM   #3046
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M11 would rather relieve M0
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Old April 17th, 2010, 05:54 PM   #3047
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Long-distance traffic is usually over-estimated.

If you look at the M1 and M5 volumes, and make an estimate that at least 60 - 70% of that traffic has an origin or destination in Budapest, the remaining 30% may be through traffic that comes from direction Wien and continues to direction Szeged.

For example, if M5 volumes are like 50,000 AADT, maybe 15,000 is through traffic. Another portion of that has an origin/destination in the wider Budapest region. My guess is M8 or M9 may receive about 5,000 - 8,000 AADT traffic that would have otherwise used the M0 in Budapest.

Hence, building long-distance motorways to relieve a city ring road is usually not a real solution. Long-distance motorways like M8 or M9 mostly serve regional traffic, for example from Nagykanisza to Pécs or around the Lake Balaton. This however, does not says building those motorways is not necessary. As far as I know, M0 is being widened as we speak, and apart from the M0-Northwest quadrant, the Budapest region is rather well-served by no less than six radial motorways and one ring motorway.

A second ring motorway is in my opinion not something that is urgent right now. If a second one is to be build, it would make most sense to have an M1-M5 bypass on the southwestside of Budapest. This would serve regional traffic, and through traffic from Western Europe to Southeastern Europe.
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Old April 17th, 2010, 09:04 PM   #3048
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yet another bridge being born
http://www.nif.hu/multimedia/gallery...d100319528.jpg
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Old April 18th, 2010, 10:46 PM   #3049
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1st class main road 43 (E68) from Makó to Szeged
/before opening M43/































The only one hill in Csongrád county

























Last edited by Atza; April 18th, 2010 at 10:51 PM.
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Old April 19th, 2010, 09:43 AM   #3050
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Long-distance traffic is usually over-estimated.

yeah, this is a general misbelief...
Far most of the traffic goes to Budapest (and its agglomeration) on the radial motorways.

(unfortunately the vignette system decreases the proportion of short-distance traffic because this traffic tend to avoid the motorways, so with free of charge motorways the proportion of long-distance traffic would be even smaller...)


Quote:
If you look at the M1 and M5 volumes, and make an estimate that at least 60 - 70% of that traffic has an origin or destination in Budapest, the remaining 30% may be through traffic that comes from direction Wien and continues to direction Szeged.

For example, if M5 volumes are like 50,000 AADT, maybe 15,000 is through traffic. Another portion of that has an origin/destination in the wider Budapest region. My guess is M8 or M9 may receive about 5,000 - 8,000 AADT traffic that would have otherwise used the M0 in Budapest.

yeah, my guess is the same.
it would be huge waste of money to build two motorways for this volume and this volume wouldnt help on M0 at all...


Quote:
Hence, building long-distance motorways to relieve a city ring road is usually not a real solution. Long-distance motorways like M8 or M9 mostly serve regional traffic, for example from Nagykanisza to Pécs or around the Lake Balaton. This however, does not says building those motorways is not necessary. As far as I know, M0 is being widened as we speak, and apart from the M0-Northwest quadrant, the Budapest region is rather well-served by no less than six radial motorways and one ring motorway.
yes, M0 south is under widening.

and budapest really has six radial motorways and one (3/4) ring motorway, but its not enough.

Budapest needs M10 to relieve main road 10, M2 widening to full profile, and many new main road bypasses and new connections.


Quote:
A second ring motorway is in my opinion not something that is urgent right now. If a second one is to be build, it would make most sense to have an M1-M5 bypass on the southwestside of Budapest. This would serve regional traffic, and through traffic from Western Europe to Southeastern Europe.

yeah! this is my opinion too.

(and this is the opinion of the director of the engineering firm which planned the M0 ring.)

unfortunately the M8 and M9 lobby groups are too noisy overwhelm the down-to-earth opinions...


and there is an urban-provincial antagonism too.

people on the countryside has serious inferiority feeling and they are jealous of the highways of budapest...
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Old April 19th, 2010, 09:48 AM   #3051
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atza View Post
1st class main road 43 (E68) from Makó to Szeged /before opening M43/
Atza, this is photo-flooding.

why dont you simply link your gallery or embed only index images in your post?
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Old April 19th, 2010, 10:12 AM   #3052
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
if i had any say, i would
- resurface 20.000 kms of secondary roads in 8 years
- resurface 8.000 kms of main roads in 4 years
- build 2.000 kms of new main roads (~500 bypasses) in 4 years
there are only 7.000km main roads...

2.000km new main roads are ok, but 500 bypasses seem to be a little bit overestimated...

and 4 years is not enough even to prepare hundreds of bypasses...


Quote:
this latter category in my mind right now demands:
- M0 south widening
- M0 west
- M10 with Aquincum bridge
- M2 second half
- M85 from Gyor-Sopron
- M86 from Csorna-Szombathely
- M80 from Varpalota-Ajka
- M4 from Budapest-RO
- M43 from Mako-RO

everything else at this point would be less productive
yeah.
maybe the "M43 from Mako-RO" is not so important.

it would be enough on half-profile after the romanians became schengen-member and reach the border on the other side.

(it would be a waste of money to build a new border-station on the motorway as we did on the M7)
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Old April 19th, 2010, 11:07 AM   #3053
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Thank you Atza for your gallery!
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Old April 19th, 2010, 11:28 AM   #3054
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gramercy

„build express roads ONLY where the capacity demands it and chose the proper type“ - I agree.

M0 west includes long tunnels so if we talk about big debts, to build the most expensive section of all time is not a good idea. Another short distance (less than 100 km) ways like M8X or M10 could be 2x2 main roads, instead of e.ways. I attempt the 2x2 sections of road 21 and I travelled safe and quick.

Between roads 4 and 8 you have no I. class road, so we cannot talk about traffic density, but on roads 4 and 8 the traffic density is sufficient. Why do you think that the new section will be motorway for ghosts ? on this line are big cities and you have another advantage – the most expensive section with danube bridge is complete. Otherwise, you can build half profile first.

H123Laci,

Quote:
you cant solve this problems ONLY with public transportation.
Not only but mainly. Do you have in BP integrated public transportation, local rail lines ?
70.000 commuters/day on rail is so much (?) I think the problem is the capacity. Bratislava has Ľ of BP inhabitans but the problems are the same. The government/self-government talk about bypass (D4), about expresway towards samorin and dunajska streda but this is not solution for the entrance/exit.

Quote:
do you want to build 50!! new railway lines???
less. In every case, it´s even more effective compared to new roads.

Quote:
unfortunately the vignette system decreases the proportion of short-distance traffic because this traffic tend to avoid the motorways, so with free of charge motorways the proportion of long-distance traffic would be even smaller...
tragical mistake. vignette system is yet a social system. When toll system will be introduce the proportion of short-distance traffic will radically decrease...you´ll see. Or do you want motorways for free ? I cannot believe...

note : yes.... I think s.o. makes a 136km detour, but not for a few minutes but because safe roads. map of most dangerous roads in Sk. Figures speak about deads anf heavily injured (2006-8). Do you need some comment ?
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Old April 19th, 2010, 01:13 PM   #3055
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmbh View Post
70.000 commuters/day on rail is so much (?) I think the problem is the capacity. Bratislava has Ľ of BP inhabitans but the problems are the same. The government/self-government talk about bypass (D4), about expresway towards samorin and dunajska streda but this is not solution for the entrance/exit.
Its more like 70000/line. Majority of the trips into the city are done with either bus or train.
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Old April 19th, 2010, 01:32 PM   #3056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmbh View Post
less. In every case, it´s even more effective compared to new roads.

nope.
roads are more effective and cheaper and generate revenue instead of huge subsidy costs.

Quote:
tragical mistake. vignette system is yet a social system. When toll system will be introduce the proportion of short-distance traffic will radically decrease...you´ll see. Or do you want motorways for free ? I cannot believe...

toll system wont be introduced for cars, only for trucks in hungary...

I dont want motorways for free, I want them without extra fee (above petrol tax)

believe it, or not...


Quote:
note : yes.... I think s.o. makes a 136km detour, but not for a few minutes but because safe roads. map of most dangerous roads in Sk. Figures speak about deads anf heavily injured (2006-8). Do you need some comment ?
what is "s.o."?

I wouldnt make such a long detour...

these numbers are absolute numbers...
relative numbers (compared to traffic volume) would be better...

and they are building the D1 continously.
unfortunately the terrain is quite difficult...
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Old April 19th, 2010, 01:34 PM   #3057
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Originally Posted by RawLee View Post
Majority of the trips into the city are done with either bus or train.

which city?
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Old April 19th, 2010, 01:51 PM   #3058
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post

yeah.
maybe the "M43 from Mako-RO" is not so important.

it would be enough on half-profile after the romanians became schengen-member and reach the border on the other side.

(it would be a waste of money to build a new border-station on the motorway as we did on the M7)
Romania will become Schengen member in march 2011, so no need for a border-station as works haven't yet started on Mako-border section. I think it will be better to build it normal profile from the begining, as traffic is expected to increase a lot in the following years.
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Old April 19th, 2010, 02:07 PM   #3059
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and what about the contstruction schedule on your side?
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Old April 19th, 2010, 02:08 PM   #3060
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
2.000km new main roads are ok, but 500 bypasses seem to be a little bit overestimated...
well, i think every single and double digit main road should only go around towns and villages, however many bypasses or kms that is


Quote:
and 4 years is not enough even to prepare hundreds of bypasses...
come again... do the math: we pay ~3 bn EUR tax as motorists and we recieve ~3 bn EUR from the EU every single year

1 km of new main road based on the pricetags you can see on nif.hu cannot average more than 150 M HUF, that makes it 500 km * 150 M HUF = 75 Mrd HUF / year or just under 300 mio EUR / year

that would only take 10 % of the money motorists pay in taxes or 10 % of the money we get from the eu or 5 % fifty-fifty

as you say, there IS money...



Quote:
maybe the "M43 from Mako-RO" is not so important.

it would be enough on half-profile after the romanians became schengen-member and reach the border on the other side.
yes, the new "temporary" Mako bypass would stretch half way already as a half-profile...

they should have built the Mako-RO as half profile in the 1st phase

Quote:
(it would be a waste of money to build a new border-station on the motorway as we did on the M7)
not really, since it is required even with the schengen treaty
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