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Old April 19th, 2010, 02:13 PM   #3061
gramercy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmbh View Post
M0 west includes long tunnels so if we talk about big debts, to build the most expensive section of all time is not a good idea. Another short distance (less than 100 km) ways like M8X or M10 could be 2x2 main roads, instead of e.ways. I attempt the 2x2 sections of road 21 and I travelled safe and quick.
perhaps you should try the Torokbalint-Budakeszi-Szepjuhaszne-Hidegkut-Solymar-Urom-Budakalasz route on a monday morning

I wonder if you would question the absolute necessity of the M0 west

there is NO bypass of budapest on the west, outside of Alkotas!!!!

Quote:
Between roads 4 and 8 you have no I. class road, so we cannot talk about traffic density, but on roads 4 and 8 the traffic density is sufficient.
perhaps you should look at the map
there is a perfect straight road from Kecskemet to Solt and from Dunaujvaros to Szekesfehervar (they are building 2 bypasses)

perfect straight roads with 2 bypasses underway...and with lots and lots of capacity left.....

that is why we dont need it--yet
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Old April 19th, 2010, 02:19 PM   #3062
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Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
Atza, this is photo-flooding.

why dont you simply link your gallery or embed only index images in your post?
sorry wasting Your time and data traffic
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Old April 19th, 2010, 02:51 PM   #3063
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Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
yeah.
maybe the "M43 from Mako-RO" is not so important.

it would be enough on half-profile after the romanians became schengen-member and reach the border on the other side.

(it would be a waste of money to build a new border-station on the motorway as we did on the M7)

""It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini"
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Old April 19th, 2010, 02:56 PM   #3064
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Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
well, i think every single and double digit main road should only go around towns and villages, however many bypasses or kms that is...
I think this is extreme (like building M8 and M9 right now)...

- building bypasses for villages and towns which are bypassed by a motorway is a waste of money.

instead of it motorways should be free of extra fee... (at least for cars)

- there are many main roads with quite low traffic. (lower than 4-5000)
bypasses on this sections is not necessary.



Quote:
come again... do the math: we pay ~3 bn EUR tax as motorists and we recieve ~3 bn EUR from the EU every single year...

you misunderstood me: I was talking about the time-factor...

there are hardly any bypasses prepared for construction, so at first we have to start with the planning phase and it requires some years...


Quote:
1 km of new main road based on the pricetags you can see on nif.hu cannot average more than 150 M HUF...
nope.
a main road is between 500-1500M HUF depending on circumstances.

and circumstances around towns are difficult (many utilitiy lines which have to be relocated, railtracks that have to crossed grade separated, intersections with radiating roads, so on...)


Quote:
that would only take 10 % of the money motorists pay in taxes or 10 % of the money we get from the eu or 5 % fifty-fifty

as you say, there IS money...

yeah.
but I dont think that all of the money should be spent "at any price".

petrol tax reduction would be more effective, it would eliminat petrol-tourism to the surrounding countries (we are the most expensive in the region! )


Quote:
they should have built the Mako-RO as half profile in the 1st phase
without motorway on the romanian side it would be useless...

(like M70 was without the A5 on the slovenian side...)

Quote:
not really, since it is required even with the schengen treaty
nope.
e.g. theres no border-station on the M70/A5 HUN/SLO border crossing...
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Old April 19th, 2010, 03:04 PM   #3065
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post

""It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini"
and how does this quote relate to my opinion?

staged construction (half profile first, and full profile later, as traffic requires) is not about pointless money sparing, but about economical development...
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Old April 19th, 2010, 03:08 PM   #3066
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Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
which city?
Budapest,of course. The modal split both inside and outside the city is still higher for public transport. Southeast and northwest Bp wins overwhelmingly with train,and the rest with buses. There was a KTI map somewhere,but I cant find it now,maybe from home...
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Old April 19th, 2010, 03:09 PM   #3067
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If you delay the second carriageway, there is a significant chance public / political opinions towards motorway construction has degraded. Which means it is harder to build this second carriageway because people think it is not necessary in terms of traffic volumes (border traffic volumes are usually not very high, but a second carriageway would improve flow, driving comfort and traffic safety significantly)

Examples;

German A62 between Kreuz Landstuhl and Pirmasens, Swiss A8 along Lake Thun, Dutch N50 near Kampen, Swiss Gotthard tunnel, Austrian Alpine tunnels, French Mont Blanc tunnel, etc.

Thus I don't really believe in terms as "we add the second carriageway when traffic warrants it." Often it takes decades if it gets built at all...
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Old April 19th, 2010, 03:10 PM   #3068
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Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
- building bypasses for villages and towns which are bypassed by a motorway is a waste of money.

instead of it motorways should be free of extra fee... (at least for cars)
yes, if that was a reality then you would be right

i think motorways should be free for passenger vechicles but it heavy vechicles should pay based on their route

on the other hand, there are still exceptions to this: for example Tatabanya-Vertesszolos-Tata or Almasfuzito-Komarom or Gonyu on road nr 1, simply because the fist is full of local commuter traffic the second and the third is full of heavy trucks because of the bridge and the port......even though M1 is theoretically bypassing them instead of nr 1.


Quote:
- there are many main roads with quite low traffic. (lower than 4-5000)
bypasses on this sections is not necessary.
i grant you, that the order should be based on aadt, but i still think there should be a quasi-standard on main roads, just like with highways you expect certain standards

in areas like around Tamasi it would make a lot of difference

Quote:
you misunderstood me: I was talking about the time-factor...

there are hardly any bypasses prepared for construction, so at first we have to start with the planning phase and it requires some years...
well, yes and no
you are right that they are not already planning them
but all that would be needed is 1 new law that would speed things up: 90 days to decide, 180 days for planning, 30+30+30 days for the opposition

after that, they can begin


Quote:
Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
- building bypasses for villages and towns which are bypassed by a motorway is a waste of money.

instead of it motorways should be free of extra fee... (at least for cars)
yes, if that was a reality then you would be right

i think motorways should be free for passenger vechicles but it heavy vechicles should pay based on their route

on the other hand, there are still exceptions to this: for example Tatabanya-Vertesszolos-Tata or Almasfuzito-Komarom or Gonyu on road nr 1, simply because the fist is full of local commuter traffic the second and the third is full of heavy trucks because of the bridge and the port......even though M1 is theoretically bypassing them instead of nr 1.


Quote:
- there are many main roads with quite low traffic. (lower than 4-5000)
bypasses on this sections is not necessary.
i grant you, that the order should be based on aadt, but i still think there should be a quasi-standard on main roads, just like with highways you expect certain standards

in areas like around Tamasi it would make a lot of difference

Quote:
nope.
a main road is between 500-1500M HUF depending on circumstances.
what are you talking about? M3 will cost less than 1000 / km after Nyiregyhaza
and that is a full profile highway with over/underpasses!

take a look at the rebuilding of 8119 from Bridgestone-Tata or at the Palin bypass
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Old April 19th, 2010, 03:27 PM   #3069
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
and what about the contstruction schedule on your side?
Construction company is going to be decided this year and works on the ground will probably start in the beginning of 2011. This applies to all sections between Nadlac and Sibiu, with the exception of Arad-Timisoara, where works started last summer. It will be full profile for all the distance.
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Old April 19th, 2010, 03:28 PM   #3070
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Originally Posted by RawLee View Post
Budapest,of course. The modal split both inside and outside the city is still higher for public transport.
inside yes, but outside the opposite is true: 65% by car, 35% by PT.
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Old April 19th, 2010, 03:48 PM   #3071
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
If you delay the second carriageway, there is a significant chance public / political opinions towards motorway construction has degraded. Which means it is harder to build this second carriageway because people think it is not necessary in terms of traffic volumes...

Thus I don't really believe in terms as "we add the second carriageway when traffic warrants it." Often it takes decades if it gets built at all...

ok, you are right, 2nd carriageway almost always delays in hungary too...

this is an irrational phenomenon of the public and the politicians...

but this can be done in rational way: like the istrian Y in croatia.
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Old April 19th, 2010, 04:43 PM   #3072
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gramercy,

Quote:
I wonder if you would question the absolute necessity of the M0 west
I need to know a few details. mainly lenght of section/tunnels, price, expected traffic density...

Quote:
there is a perfect straight road from Kecskemet to Solt and from Dunaujvaros to Szekesfehervar
OK, I want to believe you, but Atza wrote : „I drive from Szeged to Balaton on M5-M0-M7 because driving accross Hungary on tragic condition main and low class(!) roads“


even from kecskemet to balaton routeplanners reccommend the same.

there is a big contradiction, isn´ it ?

RawLee,

Quote:
Its more like 70000/line. Majority of the trips into the city are done with either bus or train.
I asked about integrated public transportation.

H123Laci,

Quote:
roads are more effective and cheaper and generate revenue instead of huge subsidy costs.
What kind of revenue ? new roads build state and incomes from vignettes aren ´t sufficient, so question is what is better subsidy (?)

toll system will be introduced for cars, this is the trend in all europe (eu have a direction about)...in post-communist state probably a few years later. in west are taxes about 7-8 cents/km. pay 100 €/month or „only“ 50 € will be not acceptable for many people. so the proportion of short-distance traffic will decrease.

Quote:
these numbers are absolute numbers...
relative numbers (compared to traffic volume) would be better...
these numbers are brutal numbers in every case. we talk about short sections....traffic volume is not all....the worse road (nitra-zlate moravce called road of death) has much lower traffic density like zilina-martin road. but it´s difference between journey brno-kosice and bratislava-kosice of course.... maybe from 2011 (complete nitra-zvolen) the southern route will be the best choise. 5 years are requested to build section near zilina, but at the time we still don´t have money.
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Old April 19th, 2010, 05:00 PM   #3073
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
...
are you the one who says everything two times, two times?

Quote:
on the other hand, there are still exceptions to this: for example Tatabanya-Vertesszolos-Tata or Almasfuzito-Komarom or Gonyu on road nr 1, simply because the fist is full of local commuter traffic the second and the third is full of heavy trucks because of the bridge and the port......even though M1 is theoretically bypassing them instead of nr 1.
yes, there are exeptions.

- when a motorway goes far away from town/village and cant serve as its bypass...
- or when a motorway is close to the town, but there are significant radial roads on the opposite side of the town...
...a bypass is necessary.


Quote:
you are right that they are not already planning them
but all that would be needed is 1 new law that would speed things up: 90 days to decide, 180 days for planning, 30+30+30 days for the opposition
after that, they can begin

well, with more than 2/3rds of the mandates making new laws will be piece of cake.

so fidesz, tie your pants, because no excuse for inactivity...




Quote:
what are you talking about? M3 will cost less than 1000 / km after Nyiregyhaza and that is a full profile highway with over/underpasses!
take a look at the rebuilding of 8119 from Bridgestone-Tata or at the Palin bypass
Im talking about the figures.
check some bypass from the last 5 years, and you will see how expensive they are...
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Old April 19th, 2010, 05:01 PM   #3074
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sorry wasting Your time and data traffic
yeah we're gonna run out of internet, behave yourself Atza
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Old April 19th, 2010, 05:10 PM   #3075
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sorry wasting Your time and data traffic
The pics are fine, Atza! Thanks for posting
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Old April 19th, 2010, 05:26 PM   #3076
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmbh View Post
I need to know a few details. mainly lenght of section/tunnels, price, expected traffic density...
lenght: 18km
tunnels necessary: 3km
tunnels expected: 10km (because of stupid greens and nimbys)
expected traffic volume is about 30-40.000/day


Quote:
OK, I want to believe you, but Atza wrote : „I drive from Szeged to Balaton on M5-M0-M7 because driving accross Hungary on tragic condition main and low class(!) roads“


even from kecskemet to balaton routeplanners reccommend the same.
there is a big contradiction, isn´ it ?
nope.
change the planning mode from fastest to sortest or economic, and voile: it wont "recommend the same"...

and as i said to atza:
the problem of the neglected main road network hasnt to be solved by motorway building but by main road maintenance and construction...


Quote:
What kind of revenue ? new roads build state and incomes from vignettes aren ´t sufficient, so question is what is better subsidy (?)
petrol tax revenue.


Quote:
toll system will be introduced for cars, this is the trend in all europe (eu have a direction about)...in post-communist state probably a few years later. in west are taxes about 7-8 cents/km. pay 100 €/month or „only“ 50 € will be not acceptable for many people. so the proportion of short-distance traffic will decrease.
and fatalities on main roads will increase.

hip-hip-hurray!



Quote:
the worse road (nitra-zlate moravce called road of death) has much lower traffic density like zilina-martin road. but it´s difference between journey brno-kosice and bratislava-kosice of course.... maybe from 2011 (complete nitra-zvolen) the southern route will be the best choise. 5 years are requested to build section near zilina, but at the time we still don´t have money.
I dont understand your problem...

both D1 and R1 are UC...

but we have seriously neglected routes with heavy traffic, while we are building (and planning) ghost motorways...

Last edited by H123Laci; April 19th, 2010 at 05:35 PM.
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Old April 19th, 2010, 05:33 PM   #3077
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
lenght: 18km
tunnels necessary: 3km
tunnels expected: 10km (because of stupid greens and nimbys)
expected traffic volume is about 30-40.000/day
Expect rather 80,000 - 100,000 AADT.
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Old April 19th, 2010, 06:28 PM   #3078
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The pics are fine, Atza! Thanks for posting
Not at all (I hope that some of visitors look for photos instead of brainstorming on this site)
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Old April 19th, 2010, 06:29 PM   #3079
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Originally Posted by Atza View Post
1st class main road 43 (E68) from Makó to Szeged
/before opening M43/

The only one hill in Csongrád county
You mean this ''lying policeman''?

BTW Hello Hungary. Hope I will see your perfect highways in June.
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Why Doctor Wu?
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Old April 19th, 2010, 07:03 PM   #3080
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Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
inside yes, but outside the opposite is true: 65% by car, 35% by PT.

I dont know from where you get that. Its even better outside of Bp than inside!



- red - car
- blue - train
- yellow - bus
- pink - other

From this map it seems M4 would be the biggest waste of money.Ever.
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