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Old April 19th, 2010, 07:18 PM   #3081
H123Laci
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RawLee View Post
I dont know from where you get that. Its even better outside of Bp than inside!
this diagram seems to be false.


Quote:
From this map it seems M4 would be the biggest waste of money.Ever.

Rawlee, you are incurable...
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Old April 19th, 2010, 07:26 PM   #3082
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
this diagram seems to be false.





Rawlee, you are incurable...
So if it doesnt support your argument,its false? You still havent prooved that your car tax (and tax on cars in general) run the country as you suggest...because you cant. Car owners in general (excluding trucks),dont even pay enough for maintennce of roads. You just spew popular misconceptions,without foundation.

And no,I'm not incurable,I just understand that cars are like gas...fill out the available space. So if you build a motorway in agglomerations ,it will get full soon. Its easier to spare the money,and build railroads,which,for comperable money,can transport much more people and goods,thus are better investment in such environments.
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Old April 19th, 2010, 07:31 PM   #3083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Expect rather 80,000 - 100,000 AADT.
are you joking or is it your serious estimate?


80-100.000 is an extremely high volume in hungary...

only the urban sections of the M1/M7, M5, M3 motorways and the Danube crossing section of M0-south have this volume.

other sections of M0 are between 40-60.000, north bridge is 40.000...

so I think the 30-40.000 is a down2earth estimate for M0 west...

Last edited by H123Laci; April 19th, 2010 at 07:54 PM.
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Old April 19th, 2010, 07:51 PM   #3084
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Originally Posted by RawLee View Post
So if it doesnt support your argument,its false?
read this:
http://levego.hu/sites/default/files...s_20070301.pdf

a study by greens: "How to divert commuters from car to PT"

"commuters traffic to budapest of 2005:
car: 400.000
PT : 210.000 (train: 41%, bus: 28%+17%, localtrain: 14% = 100%)"



Quote:
You just spew popular misconceptions,without foundation.

And no,I'm not incurable,I just understand that cars are like gas...fill out the available space. So if you build a motorway in agglomerations ,it will get full soon. Its easier to spare the money,and build railroads,which,for comperable money,can transport much more people and goods,thus are better investment in such environments.

as I said: you are incurable...

tell me only one thing: why do you visit motorway threads if you hate cars so much?
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Old April 19th, 2010, 07:52 PM   #3085
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
are you joking or is it your serious estimate?


80-100.000 is an extremely high volume in hungary...

only the urban sections of the M1/M7, M5, M3 motorways and the Danube crossing section of M0-south have this volume.

other sections of M0 are between 40-60.000, north bridge is 40.000...

so I think the 30-40.000 is a down2earth estimate...
Not right now, but 100,000 is nothing for a city of Budapest's size once you reach western European traffic levels. Even the city of Zwolle (120,000 inhabitants) has a freeway that carries 130,000 AADT. The ring road of Amsterdam (750,000 inhabitants, 2.5 million metropolitan area) has 120,000 AADT... as the lowest volume! Some sections are near 200,000 and still growing. And this is all despite an extensive public transportation network present.

As this part of M0 would have a lot of tunnels, I strongly recommend to build this part of the motorway with 2x3 lanes with a full size shoulder that can be widened to a 4th lane.

Any project you will have to do in the further future will be harder and more expensive to accomplish.
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Old April 19th, 2010, 07:58 PM   #3086
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RawLee View Post
That graph is no less than 9 years old, when Hungary's GDP per capita was 35% lower than today, probably even more in rural areas. Also; I'm not sure what this graph represents, overall usage, downtown-bound usage, Budapest-bound usage?

Anyhow, PT share in long-distance daily traffic to larger cities is usually higher. Few people can afford to commute 60 kilometers or more one way by car if there is no reasonable compensation for doing so. If you drive such distances to work, you have to pay over €2.400 per year in fuel costs, just to get to work, not to mention parking fees, maintenance, write-offs, etc.
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Old April 19th, 2010, 08:10 PM   #3087
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
traffic density and patter doesnt change quickly so that diagram of 2007 is quite uptodate...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
That graph is no less than 9 years old

Quote:
Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
read this:
http://levego.hu/sites/default/files...s_20070301.pdf

a study by greens: "How to divert commuters from car to PT"

"commuters traffic to budapest of 2005:
car: 400.000
PT : 210.000 (train: 41%, bus: 28%+17%, localtrain: 14% = 100%)"

as I said: you are incurable...

tell me only one thing: why do you visit motorway threads if you hate cars so much?
LOL @Levegő...remember,they were the ones against M0...all their stuff is BS.

I dont hate cars,I also have one. I hate commuters,who come to my city with cars. Live in the city,or dont work here.

BTW,if 1,5 million people live in the agglomeration,how come only 610000 come here?
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Old April 19th, 2010, 08:20 PM   #3088
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A lot of people consider living in the city either unaffordable or undesired, so they settle for smalltowns or suburbs. However, jobs do not relocate that easy. Robert Moses once said "the cities are for traffic", and there is some kind of truth in that, if it is desired or not...
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Old April 19th, 2010, 08:22 PM   #3089
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Not right now, but 100,000 is nothing for a city of Budapest's size once you reach western European traffic levels. Even the city of Zwolle (120,000 inhabitants) has a freeway that carries 130,000 AADT. The ring road of Amsterdam (750,000 inhabitants, 2.5 million metropolitan area) has 120,000 AADT... as the lowest volume! Some sections are near 200,000 and still growing. And this is all despite an extensive public transportation network present.

well, incredible numbers you have... :-)

but Im not so optimistic about the future of the transportation and the economy in europe.

energy prices will be higher and higher, the social net will collapse upon us as a card tower, and globalization race will be more ruthless...

so we can wait economic stagnation at best...

2x3 M0 west would be a waste of money...
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Old April 19th, 2010, 08:36 PM   #3090
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RawLee View Post
LOL @Levegő...remember,they were the ones against M0...all their stuff is BS.
ok, heres another one:
http://www.studiometropolitana.hu/do...sszervezes.pdf

(google is your friend... )


Quote:
I dont hate cars,I also have one. I hate commuters,who come to my city with cars. Live in the city,or dont work here.

you are a very friendly and hospitable person...


Quote:
BTW,if 1,5 million people live in the agglomeration,how come only 610000 come here?
only??
IMO its quite a lot.

Last edited by H123Laci; April 19th, 2010 at 08:56 PM.
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Old April 19th, 2010, 08:51 PM   #3091
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heres a diagram:



LARGE version

legend: car busz busz train train

from the study: http://www.studiometropolitana.hu/do...sszervezes.pdf
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Old April 19th, 2010, 08:59 PM   #3092
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Hello!

Even I'm a new member here!
My pictures can be found at http://www.panoramio.com/user/289148
I see that you have shared with some of my pictures here...
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Old April 19th, 2010, 09:06 PM   #3093
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hi, welcome to the thread...

yeah, this is the polite way to publish photos...
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Old April 19th, 2010, 10:16 PM   #3094
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Wu View Post
You mean this ''lying policeman''?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Wu View Post
BTW Hello Hungary. Hope I will see your perfect highways in June.
Welcome! Budapest?
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Old April 19th, 2010, 10:40 PM   #3095
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Welcome! Budapest?


M15 => M1 => M0 => M5
__________________
Why Doctor Wu?
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Old April 20th, 2010, 02:04 AM   #3096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Wu View Post


M15 => M1 => M0 => M5
M15 is half-profile, and M0 is being widened, but otherwise they are pretty good
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Old April 20th, 2010, 08:12 AM   #3097
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Wu View Post


M15 => M1 => M0 => M5
so you will be in tranzit...

and whats your destination?
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Old April 20th, 2010, 12:11 PM   #3098
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Quote:
lenght: 18km
tunnels necessary: 3km
tunnels expected: 10km (because of stupid greens and nimbys)
expected traffic volume is about 30-40.000/day
oh no....10 km is pretty much...I estimate the price 600-700 mil. €.... itīs min. 5 year to build 10 km tunnels, but maybe more (geological problems). I can only repeat myself, Itīs not a good idea to begin before 2015.

Quote:
„the problem of the neglected main road network hasnt to be solved by motorway building but by main road maintenance and construction...“
You have right, it should be reconstructed like road 2 for example. Are this sections in project list for 2007-2013 ?

"petrol tax revenue" ...I heard this argument many times in our place. petrol tax revenue is basic income of state like VAT. State have to finance educational system, health etc and this incomes are uncoverable.

Quote:
„I dont understand your problem...

both D1 and R1 are UC...

but we have seriously neglected routes with heavy traffic, while we are building (and planning) ghost motorways...“
So I have to explain to you. your basic lines are completed, your motorways connect the biggest cities and major part of regions with BP. BP has bypass. in Sk has motorway connection maybe 35-40% of population including subregions...and BA has not bypass. R1 (PPP n. 2) is really U/C. we need to complete at least another 50 km bypasses (future e.way zvolen-kosice) with 1 cca 5 km tunnel under mountain which unfortunately we cannot avoid. then road west-east will be relative safe and quick (4 hours), beacuse the traffic density on last 150 km is low. I think this is comparable to journey gyor-nyiregyhaza.

Situation on D1 is very complicated. About 70% of line bratislava - kosice is complete but itīs still the worse choise to travel. my problem is that this line is priority above all. The rest (PPP1 and 3) isnīt U/C, we can talk only about „prepare works“, because the financial closing is not complete and PPP3 has a good chance to fall. The arguments like the most industrial region, tourism are half-truths combinated with lies, because between zilina and presov are only provincial small cities, and sercices are tragical. but the concrete and tunnel lobby want to build it at every case, this is meaned literally.

You wrote 10 km tunnels is expected on M0 because of stupid greens and nimbys, although 3 km would be necessary. So between zilina and martin is very similar situation, but greens are only pupys...
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Old April 20th, 2010, 12:26 PM   #3099
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Quote:
The ring road of Amsterdam (750,000 inhabitants, 2.5 million metropolitan area) has 120,000 AADT... as the lowest volume!
but the structure of Amsterdamīs aglomeration is probably different.

Quote:
And no,I'm not incurable,I just understand that cars are like gas...fill out the available space. So if you build a motorway in agglomerations ,it will get full soon. Its easier to spare the money,and build railroads,which,for comperable money,can transport much more people and goods,thus are better investment in such environments.
I totally agree with you. in bratislava was built 4 lane motorway (year 2002) - itīs the entry for the major part of traffic from all Sk. "the gas" totally fill out the available space, but the traffic jams are not because of transit or travellers to airport but because of commuters & local people....
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Old April 20th, 2010, 01:15 PM   #3100
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oh no....10 km is pretty much...I estimate the price 600-700 mil. €.... itīs min. 5 year to build 10 km tunnels, but maybe more (geological problems). I can only repeat myself, Itīs not a good idea to begin before 2015.
it wouldnt be a 10km long tunnel, it would be a series of 3 or 4 tunnels, so it can be built in 2 years...

and its about "nature protection", so cost doesnt matter...


Quote:
"petrol tax revenue" ...I heard this argument many times in our place. petrol tax revenue is basic income of state like VAT. State have to finance educational system, health etc and this incomes are uncoverable.
and why do you think that motorists are those who have to finance such expenses?

why not PT users?

e.g. there could be a 100% PT tax on PT tickects.


Petrol tax should be spent on roads.

and "educational system, health etc." have to be financed from general budget.

if its not enough lets raise VAT to 50%...

Quote:
BP has bypass...
only a 3/4 bypass (ring).

but the rest is also very important, because it would suck away significant traffic from the congested city roads and local roads of the agglomeration...


Quote:
...and BA has not bypass.
but BA has two through motorway while BP has none.

so IMO BA's situation is better... (which can be improved with the planned D4 of course... )


Quote:
Situation on D1 is very complicated. About 70% of line bratislava - kosice is complete but itīs still the worse choise to travel. my problem is that this line is priority above all.
and what would you like?
give the same priority to two parallel (north and south) route across the country?

in this case the progress would be even slower...
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