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Old April 29th, 2010, 02:08 AM   #3141
wdw35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
what do you want with these stupid projects?
Thank God we don't have more people like you in decision-making positions!

Otherwise, we would probably still travel in horse-drawn carts on gravel roads, as one of those decision makers would have said "what do you want with these stupid asphalt-covered roadways?"...
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Old April 29th, 2010, 11:01 AM   #3142
H123Laci
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oh yeah, I see why you want stupid projects...
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Old April 29th, 2010, 02:47 PM   #3143
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gramercy, motorways can´t help if you haven´t good tax system. or are you a socialist ? socialists (in SK, in HU etc...) are silly liars and thieves.

123Laci, which projects are "stupid" and which are "wise"? do you consider the return rates or only the traffic density ?
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Old April 29th, 2010, 04:56 PM   #3144
gramercy
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gramercy, motorways can´t help if you haven´t good tax system. or are you a socialist ? socialists (in SK, in HU etc...) are silly liars and thieves.
since you just coughed this here instead of quoting a specific post of mine, i don't see what my politics have to do with any of this

have you ever heard of a white elephant?
a motorway that will work at 10-30% capacity for a decade certainly qualifies IN a country where other motorways are desperatly needed
M10 instead of M3 new section, M4 instead of M44, M85/6 instead of M6 would make much more sense

second, we need much better main roads than what we have today

just try a journey like Zalaegerszeg-Barcs or Marcalai-Kaposvar or Ozd-Eger or Esztergom-Tatabanya

and there ar millions of more relatively important courses where we don't even have proper main roads

we could have 10,000 kms of proper main roads in 4 years, and it would make much more sense economically both locally and globally


in any case, motorists pay 3 bn eur in taxes and on top of that we get 3 bn eur from the eu
how much are we spending on roads?

that's right...
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Old April 29th, 2010, 06:44 PM   #3145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
since you just coughed this here instead of quoting a specific post of mine, i don't see what my politics have to do with any of this

have you ever heard of a white elephant?
a motorway that will work at 10-30% capacity for a decade certainly qualifies IN a country where other motorways are desperatly needed
M10 instead of M3 new section, M4 instead of M44, M85/6 instead of M6 would make much more sense
Agreed, building M6 but not M10 (which is far easier, given the fact that bridges are already built to pass over both future carriageways) seems very strange.

Quote:
and there ar millions of more relatively important courses where we don't even have proper main roads
Szeged - Nagykanizsa would probably qualify here (there is no decent, straight connection and M9 is nowhere in sight, not even as Autóút:



At least one hour (maybe some more if the Budapest ring is jammed) is lost when going from Szeged to, say, Trieste.
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Old April 29th, 2010, 08:18 PM   #3146
H123Laci
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmbh View Post
123Laci, which projects are "stupid" and which are "wise"? do you consider the return rates or only the traffic density ?
those are stupid which are oversized and/or less important...

and those are "wise" which are not oversized and relieve overcrowded roads and inhabited areas...

what is a "return rate"?

not traffic density... but traffic volume!
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Old April 29th, 2010, 08:30 PM   #3147
H123Laci
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Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
a motorway that will work at 10-30% capacity for a decade certainly qualifies IN a country where other motorways are desperatly needed.

10-30% is too wide range...

capacity of a 2x2 motorway is about 80.000/day

between 5-20% (4-16.000/day) a half profile is enough...

but at 20-25% of its capacity (16-20.000/day) a full profile 2x2 motorway is required...
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Old April 29th, 2010, 08:38 PM   #3148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyqtor View Post
Szeged - Nagykanizsa would probably qualify here (there is no decent, straight connection and M9 is nowhere in sight, not even as Autóút:
At least one hour (maybe some more if the Budapest ring is jammed) is lost when going from Szeged to, say, Trieste.

yeah.

not to mention the bivalybasznád-taktaharkány route, which would be much shorter, and much faster on an "as_the_crow_flies" motorway.

yeah. that would be great for that 3 people who would use this motorway every day...
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Old April 29th, 2010, 08:50 PM   #3149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
10-30% is too wide range...

capacity of a 2x2 motorway is about 80.000/day

between 5-20% (4-16.000/day) a half profile is enough...

but at 20-25% of its capacity (16-20.000/day) a full profile 2x2 motorway is required...
True story. However, if current volumes are around 10,000 but a significant increase is expected within a reasonable time range (say 10 years), it is usually cheaper to construct a 2x2 motorway at once than spend two times money on procedures and additional labor cost by building a half-profile first and the second profile a couple of years later.

For example I think the Istrian Y half-profile motorways are now faster dualled than what was foreseen originally. Another example is the N50 in the Netherlands, which was built has half profile in 1988 but required a dualling because of traffic safety and volumes to 2x2 by the mid-1990's.

Also; the Polish S22 as a half-profile motorway is quite understandable, while the S3 near Zielona Góra needs a dualling already less than 10 years after opening.
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Old April 29th, 2010, 09:00 PM   #3150
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as long as we have main roads that _already_ have 110-160(!) % volumes, we should not build highways along main roads that are below 100%

its as simple as that
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Old April 30th, 2010, 10:36 AM   #3151
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Quote:
a motorway that will work at 10-30% capacity for a decade certainly qualifies IN a country where other motorways are desperatly needed
M10 instead of M3 new section, , M85/6 instead of M6 would make much more sense
so I searched the map of traffic density a few pages back, but map of capacity would be better.

http://www.kti.hu/uploads/images/Tre...odik/2-350.jpg

some sections of M4 and M85/6 are U/C, and this lines are priorities till 2013, aren´t they ? so what´s the problem ? I think the new section of M3 and M6 are very important too. the traffic density is sufficient and I think costs are mostly acceptable, maybe except M10. the terrain is there hilly, isn´t it ?

I think the road reconstructions and bypasses are the most important for you now because the main lines are complete. qualitative main roads can substitute some motorways which you will build later (we talked about connection M8-M4 or M9 etc...)

Quote:
have you ever heard of a white elephant?
and have you ever heard about howlet and spark ?

Quote:
capacity of a 2x2 motorway is about 80.000/day
between 5-20% (4-16.000/day) a half profile is enough...
but at 20-25% of its capacity (16-20.000/day) a full profile 2x2 motorway is required...
interresting consideration, lot of our D1 sections have 10-16.000 cars/day, it´s comparable with your M85/6, M6, M4, M3 east, M10....

Quote:
what is a "return rate"?
return rates are complicated counts something like „all-society revenues“..... the most important are considered traffic density on new road and costs. e.g. our R1 road has cca. 15.000 cars/day and the cost is 10 mil. €/km and less. long-tunnel sections on D1 have 20.000 cars/day and more but costs are 70 mil. €/km...very important is the main road quality....better quality = less people buy a motorway vignette especially when trucks have to pay toll for using this parallel roads too.... so the publicized return rates of R1 are cca 20% and D1 cca 10% like half profile projects on R2. I think in your case is problematical M0 west and maybe M10.
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Old May 4th, 2010, 08:43 PM   #3152
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Highways literature

Hi all,

does anyone can help me with one issue concerning hungarian highways? I´d like to write a dissertation (graduation thesis) about motorways in Hungaria. But first of all, my university professor asks me for some literature. I told him, that there is a very good web site on the internet (www.aka.hu), as this will be my main source, but, you know, he wants me to tell him some books about your highways.

Does anyone knows some of them? Can you tell me? Writer + name of the book?

Thanks a lot,
Martin KV
Czech Rep.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 08:22 AM   #3153
H123Laci
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aka.hu as the main source?

this is the website of the M5 operator...

here are some sources:
www.motorway.hu : state operated motorways (M1, M7, M3, M2)

www.m6-duna.hu, www.m6tolna.hu, www.mecsekautopalya.hu : M6 operators

www.nif.hu : National Infrastructure Developer

hungarian language sources: (translate it with translate.google)

motorways of hungary:
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyaro...C3%A1ly%C3%A1i

history of the hungarian motorway network:
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_magya...B6rt%C3%A9nete
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Old May 5th, 2010, 01:12 PM   #3154
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I dont think there are books about them. Most of them are too new.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 08:15 PM   #3155
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Hi Martin!

As far as I know, there are two books concerning the Hungarian motorways.

The first is "Magyar autópályák története - Az első 35 év" The title in English: "The history of the Hungarian motorways - the first 35 years: 1961-1995"
It was edited in 1996. But unfortunately, there is no ISBN number to it.

The other one is "A magyar autópályák története II. 1994-2004" The title in English: "The history of the Hungarian Motorways II. 1994-2004". It was edited in 2004.
ISBN number: 963 217 564 6

I hope I could help you. Good luck with you thesis,

strangerr
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Old May 6th, 2010, 04:29 PM   #3156
H123Laci
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RawLee View Post
I dont think there are books about them. Most of them are too new.

it would not be an obstacle...

at least it was not an obstacle for the croatians: http://www.hac.hr/brosure/monografij...lMagazine.html
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Old May 6th, 2010, 04:31 PM   #3157
H123Laci
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strangerr View Post
The other one is "A magyar autópályák története II. 1994-2004" The title in English: "The history of the Hungarian Motorways II. 1994-2004". It was edited in 2004.
ISBN number: 963 217 564 6
and he can even buy it: http://hasznalt-konyv.vatera.hu/egye...169706914.html
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Old May 8th, 2010, 12:10 AM   #3158
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M9 expressway





More photos
http://indafoto.hu/panangin/m9/page/1

Last edited by Atza; May 8th, 2010 at 10:34 AM.
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Old May 8th, 2010, 01:44 PM   #3159
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Someone having any information on what efforts will be made to make a high-troughput urban section for future M4 in Budapest? Two level intersections and exits will be needed towards District 10 avoiding the flooding of Ulloi Rd.
I've heard a crazy rumour saying the urban section would bypass the airport from North and be misteriously connected into Rd 31 at some point. This would come with an upgraded intersection at Elessarok.
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Old May 8th, 2010, 02:32 PM   #3160
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******* waste of money...

a roundabout would have been enough...
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