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Old June 21st, 2010, 11:37 AM   #3341
H123Laci
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
10.000 - 15.000 can be justified for a motorway. It will probably be around 30.000 vehicles around 2020.
are you joking?
100%(-200%) increase in the following 10 years?

and the traffic volume of the 2x1 main roads 10 and 4 "probably" will double too and will be around 40-50.000 vehicles around 2020.

wow, thats quite a lot for a 2x1 road...


but no, it wont be.

the (energy) crisis will continue, and we can be happy if we could be able to stagnate...



Quote:
I think you're focusing too much on the traffic counts, and less on other issues like regional development, traffic safety and living circumstances in towns and villages on the old route. 10.000 through + 5.000 local traffic is already quite a lot for village routes. If they take those 10.000 to the motorway, it's a great improvement for that village.

2 notes:

- the main road 6 is a NEW route, not an old one.
it bypasses all the villages...

- there are main roads which dont bypass villages and has much more traffic (even 100% more) than main road 6...

so do you think yet M6 was a good idea?

Last edited by H123Laci; June 21st, 2010 at 11:42 AM.
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Old June 21st, 2010, 11:42 AM   #3342
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Originally Posted by RKC View Post
I have said this about five times so far with the exact same arguments - you think it helped?

repeating a false argument (based on incorrect assessment of the situation) wont help...
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Old June 21st, 2010, 11:48 AM   #3343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
are you joking?
100%(-200%) increase in the following 10 years?
It's not uncommon for new motorways to see a 7 - 8% year-on-year increase for the first 10 years. Probably more in a country like Hungary where automobile usage is not yet as high as western Europe. 30.000 AADT is actually a plausible traffic volume for such a connection.

I rather spend 100% of the price now than 250% of the price when motorway construction is overdue. The faster the better, since motorway construction cost inflate way faster than average.

But I guess that when it's up to you, only Budapest has a motorway network and the rest of the country is only accessible by time-consuming and dangerous two-lane highways.
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Old June 21st, 2010, 11:54 AM   #3344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fron View Post
After a long delay M3 Nyíregyháza-Vásárosnamény section(46 km) construction starts soon, as contracts going to be signed on Tuesday.
Quote:
Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
hiphip-hurray!
According to this article, I wouldn't bet on it.

Interview whit the new Hungarian Minister for National Developments:

http://index.hu/gazdasag/magyar/2010...llegi_interju/

(Unfortunately only in Hungarian.)
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Old June 21st, 2010, 12:00 PM   #3345
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Originally Posted by gmbh View Post
many sections of our (future) D1 had traffic similar to M6. between kralovany and ruzomberok, lipt. mikulas and svit cca 12.000, probably bypass of poprad (new counting is this year), between janovce and presov cca 10.000, tunnel branisko (price 250 mil. €) had 8.200 AADT. but traffic is not everything. it´s about accessability of regions and quality of journey...
under 15.000 (in a 6-8 year forecast) a half profile is enough...


Quote:
transit roads should not have 40-50 km/h limitations etc....
yeah, thats right.

but main road 6 is a new road which bypasses the villages, so theres no 40-50km/h speed limit...

and it is NOT an international transit route (in reality, it is only in fiction)...

the main road 4 is an old road which goes through many villages with 50km/h limit...

an it IS an international transit route with heavy truck traffic...


so which would you give a priority?
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Old June 21st, 2010, 12:12 PM   #3346
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
But I guess that when it's up to you, only Budapest has a motorway network and the rest of the country is only accessible by time-consuming and dangerous two-lane highways.

nope, you guess it wrong...

when its up to me, I would build motorways in 2 stages (half-full profile) and according to priority based on traffic load (and not on political issues)

and I wouldnt neglect other important tasks: main road bypasses and maintenance... (our main road network is like a war-zone)
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Old June 21st, 2010, 12:17 PM   #3347
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Originally Posted by Nyuszi View Post
According to this article, I wouldn't bet on it.

Ebben az új filozófiában, a minisztériuma egy más területén, az útgazdálkodásban, mi lesz a meghatározó: az építés vagy a felújítás? Folytatódik-e a sztrádaprogram?

A drága autópálya-építés helyett az igények szerint gyorsforgalmi utat kell építeni. De mivel nagyon lepusztult a magyar közúthálózat, elsősorban ennek a rendbetételére kell koncentrálnunk.



that sounds good...
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Old June 21st, 2010, 12:37 PM   #3348
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Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post


that sounds good...
You are satisfied!
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Old June 21st, 2010, 01:39 PM   #3349
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Quote:
under 15.000 (in a 6-8 year forecast) a half profile is enough...
the biggest problem is not half profile or full profile because half profiles have to include long bridges or tunnels. btw. 1/2 profiles have to be accommodated to completing (wide overpasses etc). the question is : build complete motorways or solve the most problematical sections first (bypasses, hills...). I vote for the 2. possibility. if we think only about traffic density we cannot build motorway to 1/3 inhabitans with 2nd and 3rd biggest city....it´s ridiculous.

Quote:
so which would you give a priority?
road 4 also have bypasses, haven´t it ? .... my answer is I can´t judge, becasue I don´t have experience with this roads and I know nothing about preparation...nobody doubts that bypass of bratislava D4 - east is very important, but the project is not complete... but I don´t ask anybody if he wants D4 for 30.000 and more AADT or D1 under mountains and forests for 10-15.000 AADT.

you didn´t answer me about the amount you have from eurofunds... but I think you cannot build everything you want till 2013-15. my opinion is the traffic density is important but connections capital - biggest cities with many inhabitans are important too....M6. I think pecs is one of the biggest cities = big potencial of traffic.

I have read your priorities and I mosty agree with you....

new sections of M3 or motorway to bekescsaba is immature. important are recontructions of main roads, widening of M2, E65 to szombathely (sorry, I don´t know the number), M4 or probably M10. 1st, 2nd, 3rd are U/C or comming soon, aren´t they ? except M6 I don´t agree with you in case of M0 west. in bratislava is it similar - D4 east will take major part of traffic like your M0 south, east and M31. D4 north is only a luxury and expensive shortcut with tunnels and bridges.

so I´m looking for the information about opening M31...have you definitive deadline for opening ?

Last edited by gmbh; June 21st, 2010 at 01:47 PM.
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Old June 21st, 2010, 01:47 PM   #3350
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Quote:
under 15.000 (in a 6-8 year forecast) a half profile is enough...
the biggest problem is not half profile or full profile because half profiles have to include long bridges or tunnels. btw. 1/2 profiles have to be accommodated to completing (wide overpasses etc). the question is : build complete motorways or solve the most problematical sections first (bypasses, hills...). I vote for the 2. possibility. if we think only about traffic density we cannot build motorway to 1/3 inhabitans with 2nd and 3rd biggest city....it´s ridiculous.

Quote:
so which would you give a priority?
road 4 also have bypasses, haven´t it ? .... my answer is I can´t judge, becasue I don´t have experience with this roads and I know nothing about preparation...nobody doubts that bypass of bratislava D4 - east is very important, but the project is not complete... but I don´t ask anybody if he wants D4 for 30.000 and more AADT or D1 under mountains and forests for 10-15.000 AADT.

you didn´t answer me about the amount you have from eurofunds... but I think you cannot build everything you want till 2013-15. my opinion is the traffic density is important but connections capital - biggest cities with many inhabitans is important too....M6. I think pecs is one of the biggest cities = big potencial of traffic.

I have read your priorities and I mosty agree with you. new sections of M3 or motorway to bekescsaba is immature. important are recontructions of main roads, widening of M2, E65 to szombathely (sorry, I don´t know the number), M4 or probably M10. 1st, 2nd, 3rd are U/C or comming soon, aren´t they ? except M6 I don´t agree with you in case of M0 west. in bratislava is it similar - D4 east will take major part of traffic like your M0 south and east and D4 north is only a luxury and expensive shortcut with tunnels and bridges.
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Old June 21st, 2010, 09:49 PM   #3351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmbh View Post
the biggest problem is not half profile or full profile because half profiles have to include long bridges or tunnels. btw. 1/2 profiles have to be accommodated to completing (wide overpasses etc).
half profile means about 2/3 cost. (because of full overpasses and some earthwork for 2nd profile)
but in case of bridges and tunnels half profile means half cost.

or in other words: you can build 1,5-2 times more from the same budget.

Quote:
the question is : build complete motorways or solve the most problematical sections first (bypasses, hills...). I vote for the 2. possibility.
agree.

Quote:
if we think only about traffic density we cannot build motorway to 1/3 inhabitans with 2nd and 3rd biggest city....it´s ridiculous.
why would it be ridiculous?
motorways are for TRAFFIC and not to be a generous present from the president to a faithful city...


Quote:
road 4 also have bypasses, haven´t it ? .... my answer is I can´t judge, becasue I don´t have experience with this roads and I know nothing about preparation...
yeah, it has, but there are many missing...
but this is not the only problem: traffic overload is the other one...
chech it on www.utadat.hu

Quote:
nobody doubts that bypass of bratislava D4 - east is very important, but the project is not complete... but I don´t ask anybody if he wants D4 for 30.000 and more AADT or D1 under mountains and forests for 10-15.000 AADT.
I dont know the situation in Bratislava...
if the D1 in Bratislava is seriously jammed in peak traffic, the D4 is urgent.


Quote:
you didn´t answer me about the amount you have from eurofunds...
I dont know the details... I know only we can apply for 30mrd eur in the 2007-2013 intervall...
but I dont know how much money can we spend on roads...


Quote:
my opinion is the traffic density is important but connections capital - biggest cities with many inhabitans are important too....M6. I think pecs is one of the biggest cities = big potencial of traffic.
pecs has significant agglomeration (commuter) traffic, but the M6 wont help, because it makes a huge detour...

instead of this wasteful megalomanic projec we should have to widen the main road 6 to 2x2 between pecs and sexárd...

Quote:
I don´t agree with you in case of M0 west. in bratislava is it similar - D4 east will take major part of traffic like your M0 south, east and M31. D4 north is only a luxury and expensive shortcut with tunnels and bridges.
I dont know the traffic around Bratislava...
looking at the map, it really seems no too urgent...

but the situation in budapest is very different:

in the 10/11/M2<->M1/M7/M6 destinations the M0east/south is a too big detour...
of course you can force trucks to make that detour, but you cannot force cars (under 3,5t), so they will go through the city...

and budapest HAS NO through motorways...(while bratislava has...)

Quote:
so I´m looking for the information about opening M31...have you definitive deadline for opening ?
maybe on 9th July.

Last edited by H123Laci; June 21st, 2010 at 10:04 PM.
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Old June 22nd, 2010, 11:27 AM   #3352
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Cost of 105 km uncomplete sections D1 between zilina-presov is at least 3,5-4 bil. € in case we don´t discover some „surprises“ under surface...unfortunately we used to...from cohesion fund we can apply for cca. 1 bil. €. So half profiles on D1 don´t save us. the cost of your 200 km M6 were surely far less.

I checked the map of traffic density... but the question is ... is M4 (or M10) prepared for construction ?

Quote:
motorways are for TRAFFIC and not to be a generous present from the president to a faithful city...
it´s not a present because 1-1,5 mil. people in region (eastern sk, south-west hu) is enough to have a motorway especially if costs are acceptable. but this categorical „do or die“ statements make don´t senses at all if you have enough mrd. from eurofunds. you can build most of your priorities.

Quote:
10/11/M2<->M1/M7/M6 destinations the M0east/south is a too big detour...
OK, but the situation in BA-BP is however comparable. both have cca 100.000 AADT. But D4 east can take cca 20% of this and D4 north less, so I don´t think this (D4 north, M0 west) destinations are too required.
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Old June 22nd, 2010, 12:34 PM   #3353
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Originally Posted by gmbh View Post
the cost of your 200 km M6 were surely far less.
M4 would be even more less, cause theres no need for expensive tunnels and viaducts...
(only a bridge on the tisza river)


Quote:
I checked the map of traffic density... but the question is ... is M4 (or M10) prepared for construction ?
in case of 10 plans are ready, but ******* greenies are ******* against it...

in case of 4 plans have to be upgraded cause it was planned as a 2x2 main road, but theyve changed their mind and want to build it as a motorway...


Quote:
it´s not a present because 1-1,5 mil. people in region (eastern sk, south-west hu) is enough to have a motorway
no, it is not enough.

motorwas are NOT for people but for TRAFFIC.

if people are NOT able to make enough traffic, they do not need a motorway, a simple main road is enough for them.

a motorway with low traffic is a luxury and a waste of money...
mainly in a poor country like hungary (the land of hungry... )


Quote:
OK, but the situation in BA-BP is however comparable. both have cca 100.000 AADT. But D4 east can take cca 20% of this and D4 north less, so I don´t think this (D4 north, M0 west) destinations are too required.
no, it is not comparable...
the forecasted traffic of M0west is about 40.000...

and it lure away traffic NOT from a through motorway, but mainly from congested city roads...

thats quite a difference...
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Old June 22nd, 2010, 02:52 PM   #3354
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Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
repeating a false argument (based on incorrect assessment of the situation) wont help...
all I ever said was that existing traffic cannot be the only reason to build motorways. You basicly say it can. That is where we disagree.

You say half profile mways are a good solution. I strongly disagree. They do bypass towns, which is important yes, but they lack safety (oncoming trafic not separated), they lack advantage of speed (having to overtake slow vehicles), and IMO they do not help regions to be more attractive for investors for the above reasons, so they also lack ecomomical advantages.

I would choose 2x2 roads like the #8 over half profile motorways, for areas with less traffic.
I also don't say M6 was the most important road to build. But if we consider tourism and accesibility of our most important cities, i say the picture is less black and white. M4 would be extremly important , I agree. But based on my own frequent experiences, it isn't worse to drive than road 6 was, and the busiest parts of the road are well equiped with bypasses.
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Old June 22nd, 2010, 02:54 PM   #3355
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Quote:
in case of 4 plans have to be upgraded...
so M4 isn´t prepared, what are we talking about ?

Quote:
a motorway with low traffic is a luxury and a waste of money...
a lot of people have potencial of big traffic. so I think M6 is something else like M3 near UA.

Quote:
the forecasted traffic of M0west is about 40.000...
I have read a few our forecasts...but the classic says... everybody lies. especially when they need to find arguments for spending money for more and more cement. poor countrys shouldn´t build short and too expensive sections.
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Old June 22nd, 2010, 03:57 PM   #3356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmbh View Post
so M4 isn´t prepared, what are we talking about?
the M4?


Quote:
a lot of people have potencial of big traffic. so I think M6 is something else like M3 near UA.
talking about potential is a bullshit...

potential does NOT make traffic only cars do...

at first fill the road you have and then you can ask upgrade...

it is simple as that...


Quote:
poor countrys shouldn´t build short and too expensive sections.

is this some kind of "fixa idea"?

price doesnt matter.
what does matter is the benefit/price ratio...
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Old June 22nd, 2010, 04:23 PM   #3357
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Originally Posted by RKC View Post
You say half profile mways are a good solution. I strongly disagree. They do bypass towns, which is important yes, but they lack safety (oncoming trafic not separated), they lack advantage of speed (having to overtake slow vehicles), and IMO they do not help regions to be more attractive for investors for the above reasons, so they also lack ecomomical advantages.
there are 30.000km national road which "lack safety" (they are 2x1 and most of them is in terrible condition) and "lack advantage of speed" (they are limited to 40-90)

so what?
build 2x2 expressways even to the smallest village?

who will pay the price?



Quote:
I also don't say M6 was the most important road to build.
yeah, there are a few hundred more important projects...

Quote:
But if we consider tourism and accesibility of our most important cities, i say the picture is less black and white.
tourism? this is bullshit...

do you think a tourist wont go to pecs if the journey is 30min longer?

this is ridiculous...

were there frequent traffic jams and congestions?

no?
in this case the road was OK.

Quote:
M4 would be extremly important , I agree.
yes, it would.

Quote:
But based on my own frequent experiences, it isn't worse to drive than road 6 was, and the busiest parts of the road are well equiped with bypasses.
no, it is worse.
2 times more traffic makes it really worse.

and while the MR6 misses 2 bypasses (at dunaföldvár and paks) the MR4 misses 7... (and capacity...)
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Old June 22nd, 2010, 04:59 PM   #3358
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Is it possible for you to write a post without a "lol" smiley?
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Old June 22nd, 2010, 05:20 PM   #3359
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Could you possibly tell me, please, if there are already or are to be build any sections on M0 3x3+2e?

Sorry ,if it's been asked.

Last edited by PhirgataZFs1694; June 22nd, 2010 at 05:31 PM.
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Old June 22nd, 2010, 05:51 PM   #3360
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3x3? NO!

but, 2x3+e YESSS!

(a 3km section at the M6xM0 IC was widened to 2x3+e 2 years ago when this IC was opened...
the widening of the rest of the southern sector (M1-M5) is U/C)
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