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Old June 24th, 2010, 10:25 PM   #3381
H123Laci
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmbh View Post
no-no-no...wait... this is an example from eastern part....please don´t try fooling me...you cannot applicate this to BP west....different geographics, demographics, industrie atc... Neither I want to D4 north because of traffic from east....
I cant show you a western sector example on the google, cause theres no M0West yet...

the situation on the west part is very similar (but this IS worse):

there is ONLY one 2x1 road to the city from this region!

and this region is rich, car usage is high PT is weak.

so this road is heavily congested, it worth to avoid it...

but how?

the ONLY transversal route in the region is a nightmare:

this is a curvy 2x1 local road on heavily builtup area with extreme traffic: on some sections is above 20.000!! (check www.utadat.hu)

the M0West could lure away most of it instantly, and lure away another portion from the previous road leading to the city.

and on top of this there is the earlier mentioned M1/M7/M6<->M2/11/10 transit traffic...

(and these are not week directions: M1/M7/M6 is about 220.000 and M2/11/10 is about 120.000...
I think it can generate some transit traffic... )


believe me: 40.000 is NOT an exaggeration...


D4north is a totally different story:

its a bloody long tunnel (10km?), so it gives no connection for outlying villages with high car usage.

but the 18km long M0W will has 5!! IC between the M1 and M10 (excluding the M1 and M10 ICs!)
(average IC distance is 3km!)

so itt will be a lifebelt for this willages, which can be hardly reached now.

Last edited by H123Laci; June 24th, 2010 at 10:39 PM.
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Old June 25th, 2010, 09:44 AM   #3382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
ok, lets be serious:

that overpass section above M3 is not a REAL 2x3...

it was planned to be a C/D lane for the M3xM0 cloverleaf IC, when it was partially built in 1998.

but plan has changed and they have built a separate C/D road, so the M0 overpass above M3 became unnecessarily wide...

although they painted it 3 lanes wide it has no sense: its too short for overtaking and the 2x2 has quite enough spare capacity...
I also know the history of this IC but now this section have C/D + 3 + 3 + C/D lanes.

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Old June 25th, 2010, 09:53 AM   #3383
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Quote:
there is ONLY one 2x1 road to the city from this region!
you write about "hidegkuti ut" but the main MR10 is "becsi ut". your previous example from eastern part makes sense, but traffic from MR10 could use M0 west and then reach the downtown throught M0-M1 intersection ?

Quote:
and on top of this there is the earlier mentioned M1/M7/M6<->M2/11/10 transit traffic...
ok, but 20-30 km more for transit throught M0 east is indifferent.
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Old June 25th, 2010, 11:18 AM   #3384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atza View Post
I also know the history of this IC but now this section have C/D + 3 + 3 + C/D lanes.
dont left out the emergency lanes!!
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Old June 25th, 2010, 11:38 AM   #3385
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmbh View Post
you write about "hidegkuti ut" but the main MR10 is "becsi ut". your previous example from eastern part makes sense, but traffic from MR10 could use M0 west and then reach the downtown throught M0-M1 intersection ?
yes.

and traffic from M1 could use M0 west and then reach the downtown throught the M0-M10 intersection...

so I think the 40.000 is a very underestimated forecast, itt will be at least 150.000...


one thing is sure: if you dont want to understand, you wont understand...


Quote:
ok, but 20-30 km more for transit throught M0 east is indifferent.
thats not only "20-30 km more"...

eg. between the M10 and M7 the route is 86km on M0E, and 22km on M0W
so the difference is 64km...

nobody makes such a huge detour (except trucks which can be forced to detour), instead of it they cross the city...

maybe you think the M31 is also a waste of money (80mil.eur), because it reduces the route between M3 and M0S "only" by 13km...

heres a little story about the M25, the London Orbital, aka the "Road to Hell":


The eternal question is: why is a simple ring road, a 360-degree bypass of a city, so badly congested?

There appear to be three principal reasons.

First, as a sweetener to locals along the route, junctions were dropped in all over the place. They allowed the road to be built, but allowed lots of local traffic onto what was intended as a long-distance route. It also means the road is now used by many commuters.

Second, it was meant to be the outermost of three or four ring roads for London (for which see the Ringways feature); not counting the inner ring road and South Circular, which are signed routes along city streets, it is currently the outermost of one and a half ring roads.

Thirdly, and partly for the reasons above, the demand for this road was so grossly underestimated that when it was finally completed in 1986, it was already out of date. Demand outstripped capacity within a few short years and ever since then it's been a long and expensive battle to make things move once more.
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Old June 25th, 2010, 12:27 PM   #3386
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Quote:
and traffic from M1 could use M0 west and then reach the downtown throught the M0-M10 intersection...
why ? you wrote "there (from future M0-M10 intersection) is ONLY one 2x1 road to the city from this region!" so if we talk about traffic from north-west is it unsufficient but in this case is it sufficient ? it´s longer journey for the traffic from M1-M7 without another compensation.

we cannot avoid the biggest problem of M0 west...it´t useless for commuters from north-west and south-west too and this section hasn´t his own suburban zone, only hills and forests.

Quote:
eg. between the M10 and M7 the route is 86km on M0E, and 22km on M0W
M10 is OK but without new bridge throught danube is it blind "street", no transit route , transit from central slovakia uses E77-M2 and transit from west uses medvedov-vamosszabadi or komarno-komarom. about M6 you said that´s not transit route, so.... the most frequented north-south transit is E77-E75 i.e. M2-M5.

another thing is tracing, you can curse to greenies, but we have the same problem when our state wants to save some money by construction of cheaper variant and EU is not devoted. apparently the most expensive variant will be chosen and that means delay.
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Old June 25th, 2010, 12:30 PM   #3387
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THIS is the route (made of congested local roads) which substitue the missing part of the M0.




lenght: 37km travel time: 60min (but at least 120min in rush hours)

the same statistics of the missing M0 section:

lenght: 29km travel time: 17min (17min in rush hours)
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Old June 25th, 2010, 12:59 PM   #3388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmbh View Post
why ?
have you heard about "irony"?

Quote:
you wrote "there (from future M0-M10 intersection) is ONLY one 2x1 road to the city from this region!"
NOT from the M0xM10 but from the region BETWEEN the M10 and M1 (buda hills)!!

this region is served only by one 2x1 route (hűvösvölgyi út) to the downtown...



Quote:
we cannot avoid the biggest problem of M0 west...it´t useless for commuters from north-west and south-west too...
but its useful for commuters from WEST...

Quote:
...and this section hasn´t his own suburban zone, only hills and forests.
yeah, it hasnt, it has "only" 8 highly motorised villages...

look at the map before you say your opinion...

Quote:
M10 is OK but without new bridge throught danube is it blind "street", no transit route , transit from central slovakia uses E77-M2 and transit from west uses medvedov-vamosszabadi or komarno-komarom. about M6 you said that´s not transit route, so.... the most frequented north-south transit is E77-E75 i.e. M2-M5.

the meaning of "transit" depends on the context:

in point of view of a country the "transit" is a traffic which crosses the country...

but in point of view of budapest (or any city) the "transit" is a traffic which crosses the city... (although it wants to bypass it...

so the traffic from budakalász to törökbálint IS transit traffic...
(there is a regional lung cancer hospital at törökbalint)

and this recquires no bridge at esztergom/sturovo...


of course the new esztergom/sturovo bridge is necessary to help INTERNATIONAL truck traffic.

but its prerequisite is M10 and M0West.

it has no sence to lure international truck traffic onto heavily congested 2x1 local roads...

Last edited by H123Laci; June 25th, 2010 at 02:17 PM.
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Old June 25th, 2010, 09:03 PM   #3389
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I played a little bit with maps.google, and planned a "Tour de Budapest" route on local roads following the alignment of M0...

statistics:
lenght: 156km, travel time: 4h (7-8h in peak traffic) - (M0: 108km, 1h)

there are some detour on the south and north, because there are NO bridges closer to the M0 crossings!!

this is a serious problem now...
traffic is 150.000 on the 2x3 "árpád" bridge (northest city bridge) and 100.000 on the 2x2 "lágymányosi" bridge (southest city bridge)

budapest desperately need NEW BRIDGES!


Last edited by H123Laci; June 25th, 2010 at 09:09 PM.
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Old June 25th, 2010, 11:24 PM   #3390
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[QUOTE=H123Laci;59281121]I played a little bit with maps.google, and planned a "Tour de Budapest" route on local roads following the alignment of M0...

statistics:
lenght: 156km, travel time: 4h (7-8h in peak traffic) - (M0: 108km, 1h)



there are some detour on the south and north, because there are NO bridges closer to the M0 crossings!!

this is a serious problem now...
traffic is 150.000 on the 2x3 "árpád" bridge (northest city bridge) and 100.000 on the 2x2 "lágymányosi" bridge (southest city bridge)

budapest desperately need NEW BRIDGES!

QUOTE]

Bullshit. You need new bridges. You look at the whole country from your narrow perspective of a peasant from Budakalasz. Same stands for M10. Stay home and work in Budakalasz then you do not need to queue.

Besides: if Budapest wants bridges it shall finance and build them. It would be a local project. Not my business. Do not waste tax payers' money.
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Old June 25th, 2010, 11:47 PM   #3391
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Quote:
lenght: 156km, travel time: 4h (7-8h in peak traffic)
Even Budapest does not have 8 consecutive hours of peak traffic. By the time you clinched half of the route, rush hour is long over.

I do agree on M0 though, it should be constructed asap with 2x3 lanes with a left shoulder in tunnels and bridges to accommodate a future 4th lane. Learn from our mistakes.
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Old June 26th, 2010, 09:36 AM   #3392
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ribiribiribi, how stupid you are...
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Old June 26th, 2010, 10:11 AM   #3393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Even Budapest does not have 8 consecutive hours of peak traffic. By the time you clinched half of the route, rush hour is long over.
yeah, of course, it was only a theoretical estimation...
(anyway: a beltway is NOT for going full circles... )


Quote:
I do agree on M0 though, it should be constructed asap with 2x3 lanes with a left shoulder in tunnels and bridges to accommodate a future 4th lane.
yeah, we've talked about it already, but I disagree..

there are hungarian saying for this: "you fall onto the other side of the horse" and "you shoot a sparrow with a cannon"

2x2 is plenty enough, this is NOT London with 10M people...

and an other important issue:

I think the growth of our economy is over, we can anticipate stagnation (or decrease)

(our society is growing old, our lazy, untrained gipsies proliferate, social expenditures kills the economy, CHINA conquers the world's economy and here's the PeakOil = the energy will become more and more expensive...)

so I'm not soo optimistic about traffic growth like you...


therefore we HAVE to concentrate on maintenance of the existing network (it IS very neglected)
upgrades and construction is enough only to the current traffic volumes...

Quote:
Learn from our mistakes.
and what?

your mistake wasn't building too low capacity (it was enough in that time), but was NOT increasing capacity for DECADES.

building too much capacity prematurely is simple waste of money and would be a mistake too.
(e.g.: ghost M6 )

Last edited by H123Laci; June 26th, 2010 at 10:18 AM.
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Old June 26th, 2010, 04:29 PM   #3394
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2x2 is plenty enough, this is NOT London with 10M people...
Compare it with Brussels, a 1.5 million metropolitan area with one beltway, rather similar to Budapest, Brussels is also the spider in the Belgian road web. They're currently talking about expanding the beltway to 12 lanes, so I don't think 6 lanes with space for 8 lanes for Budapest is an oversized proposal.

You, mr Laci, have an extremely short-term point of view. You don't construct a brand new motorway to widen again within 15 years. If you are gonna build something like M0 Northwest, with a lot of tunnels and bridges, then better do it right at once. That is 2x3 with space for a 4th lane. The cost index may be 1.5, but that's better than spending two times a 1.0 cost index. (In the end, it is cheaper).

By the way, it's hard to take you serious with all those smilies. Quite frankly, it looks like you're drunk every time you post something.
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Old June 26th, 2010, 05:50 PM   #3395
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Instead, can anyone tell me why bridges and viaducts on M0 have concrete surface? I know the same is in the US, but no other European country uses this technology.
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Old June 26th, 2010, 06:33 PM   #3396
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M0 south became a rollercoaster with its asphalt surface because of the heat and usage (and probably quality). Concrete will last much longer, without becoming dangerous.
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Old June 26th, 2010, 07:26 PM   #3397
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PLH View Post
Instead, can anyone tell me why bridges and viaducts on M0 have concrete surface? I know the same is in the US, but no other European country uses this technology.
because this requires a special technology.

builders cannot use the standard concrete finisher and concrete mixture (which they use on the motorway) on bridges and viaducts.

it requires a special machine (eg. walter heilit VWB) and special mixture (cp 4/3-20 KK)

it is more simple to surface bridges with asphalt...
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Old June 26th, 2010, 07:56 PM   #3398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Compare it with Brussels, a 1.5 million metropolitan area with one beltway, rather similar to Budapest, Brussels is also the spider in the Belgian road web.

"spider in the road web"... thats a funny metaphor...

Quote:
They're currently talking about expanding the beltway to 12 lanes, so I don't think 6 lanes with space for 8 lanes for Budapest is an oversized proposal.

You, mr Laci, have an extremely short-term point of view. You don't construct a brand new motorway to widen again within 15 years. If you are gonna build something like M0 Northwest, with a lot of tunnels and bridges, then better do it right at once. That is 2x3 with space for a 4th lane. The cost index may be 1.5, but that's better than spending two times a 1.0 cost index. (In the end, it is cheaper).
this is YOUR opinion.

there are opinions that theres no need for M0west at all... (gmbh and others)

and I'm between you on the "golden mean"... thats comforting...


but you elegantly step over my forecast about the economy which limit the traffic growth...

if you want to adhere to the 10-15years estimation of capacity shortage of a 2x2 motorway, you should explain what kind of economic forecast are you basing it?


Quote:
By the way, it's hard to take you serious with all those smilies. Quite frankly, it looks like you're drunk every time you post something.
yeah, I like distilled fruits...

I think its better to laugh on annoying things than to be always huffy...

or would you prefer emoticons?

Last edited by H123Laci; June 26th, 2010 at 08:11 PM.
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Old June 26th, 2010, 10:27 PM   #3399
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
By the way, it's hard to take you serious with all those smilies. Quite frankly, it looks like you're drunk every time you post something.
Maybe it's his avatar-the dude behind the cactus really looks like an AA member.
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Old June 26th, 2010, 10:48 PM   #3400
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