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Old August 31st, 2011, 05:46 PM   #4641
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Wouldn't it solve traffic problems for local commuters, no?
no, because an m road if built to 2x2 would certainly be tolled, so commuters would remain on the old road
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Old August 31st, 2011, 05:51 PM   #4642
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Then what's the point of building M85 and M86?
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Old August 31st, 2011, 05:57 PM   #4643
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75% unused capacity is still the same as an overloaded two-lane national road... (20.000 vehicles per day). New rural motorways will almost never jump to 40.000+ vehicles per day in the first 10 years. The previous roads simply do not handle anywhere near that kind of traffic. When western European motorways were constructed in the 1950's and 1960's they also used to handle maybe 10.000 - 20.000 vehicles per day, but are now closer to 60.000 - 90.000 vehicles per day. It takes time, a motorway is an investment for the future.
we have x amount of money
we build y kms of 2x2 with no upgradeability and 75++ percent empty capacity

from the same money we could build 2y kms of 2+1 and leave the option of a capacity upgrade open should it become necessary

investing into massive amounts of inferior quality empty capacity means that there remain hundreds of kms of gaps in the network where the capacity is actually needed, m10, m0, m4 and so on
not to mention hideous road quality on the 30,000 km long tertiary roads


in a country desperately lacking capital, it is imperative that we put every cent to work with the highest rate of return and not 75 percent idle
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Old August 31st, 2011, 06:04 PM   #4644
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Then what's the point of building M85 and M86?
the distinction im making is when the full profile/2x2 is necessary

there is clearly a need to supplement the crappyass through-village roads with straight roads, but the current traffic figures dont require a 2x2 so we should build with maximum return and upgradeability

and that means a 2+1 half profile with 3*3,75m lanes, alternating directions, level crossings/roundabouts, made of concrete


thats all
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Old August 31st, 2011, 07:58 PM   #4645
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Then what's the point of building M85 and M86?
Heavy transit. The main (actually the only) issue there is heavy transit from Rajka to Rédics (SK -> SLO). Trucks make a detour since there are huge road fees in Austria. In Hungary a one day vignette is 3,000 forint (~11€). I don't know how much is the fee in Slovenia but for sure the both together is far less than in Austria which is approx. 120€ for a heavy truck from Slovakia to Italy. So heavy freight flows in Hungarian national roads 85 and 86 which were not built for handling such a traffic.
Without this transit traffic these roads would have a large overcapacity (AADT under 5,000) and even local inhabitants could have a normal life - currently hundreds of loaded trucks drive by their windows daily.
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Old August 31st, 2011, 08:03 PM   #4646
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Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
no, because an m road if built to 2x2 would certainly be tolled, so commuters would remain on the old road
It is an interesting issue in other places as well. E.g. M2. That road has an AADT of 25,000, currently being a 2×1 expressway. It will be developed to a full motorway but local commuters are against it since it is now free but as a motorway it would probably be tolled. It means that (a) local commuters have to pay a fee (b) casual users would probably not buy the vignette for twentysome kilometers but use the old road through the villages, making noise and dust there.
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Old August 31st, 2011, 09:31 PM   #4647
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thats only a problem because we lack main roads as well

there should be 3 levels, like the m1 corridor where you can still trace the old road, the main road and the highway

main road 1 was built as the half profile for the future m1, yet when time came to build m1 they chose an even more direct route

this is one of the reasons why i advocate for half profiles, there is no way of telling what kind of traffic volumes/compositions or what kind of technologies will exist 20-30 years down the road


i guess part of the solution could be the gps based universal toll system, but i am against that because it will be yet another tax disproportionately targeting the productive side of hungarian society in an age when motorists already subsidize the central budget to the tune of 2-2,5 bn euros ... no problem passing it then
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Old September 1st, 2011, 07:55 AM   #4648
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I seriously disagree. For such roads the main issue is that it is almost impossible to overtake slow vehicles. National road 85-86 just like 44, etc. has heavy truck traffic. If you build a 2×1 half motorway, it will be still impossible to overtake and you don't solve anything - and we all know that in the following 15-20 years we won't have the money for completing such a half motorway.
Lesson 1, example 1:

Point on the pictures the slow traffic that would be hard to overtake on a 2x1 road. Use red marker to emphasize it.
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Old September 2nd, 2011, 02:24 PM   #4649
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Lesson 1, example 1:

Point on the pictures the slow traffic that would be hard to overtake on a 2x1 road. Use red marker to emphasize it.
Sorry?
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Old September 3rd, 2011, 12:56 PM   #4650
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Road 86:




















M1:


























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Old September 3rd, 2011, 01:17 PM   #4651
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Good heavens... amount of objects to comprehend: 30 (numbers, arrows, symbols, destinations, distances)
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Old September 3rd, 2011, 01:18 PM   #4652
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zsimi80 View Post


If they would build that section of M1 nowadays there surely would be a big viaduct or 2 tunnels... :-)

Last edited by JackFrost; September 3rd, 2011 at 01:26 PM.
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Old September 3rd, 2011, 03:23 PM   #4653
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I think this solution is better, cheaper.
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Old September 3rd, 2011, 05:09 PM   #4654
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I think this solution is better, cheaper.
that was supposed to be a joke. of course its cheaper (and smarter)
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Old September 3rd, 2011, 10:06 PM   #4655
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Good heavens... amount of objects to comprehend: 30 (numbers, arrows, symbols, destinations, distances)
That location is close to Austria, it might be their influence
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Old September 4th, 2011, 07:17 PM   #4656
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Last week I drove a lot in Hungary. Here are the pics from my trip:

Entrance in Hungary at Nagylak border crossing with Romania:





On M43 motorway crossing Tisza bridge in Szeged:



Roadworks on M5 exactly at M43 - M5 interchange. Had to take Belgrade exit



At the first exit we could turn back around to Budapest:



Roadworks on M5:





Truck weight check station on M5:





M5 - M0-north exit:

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Old September 4th, 2011, 07:25 PM   #4657
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M0

Taking M0-south exit:



Works at the M0-south + north link:





I wasn't happy to see this:



Future M0 lanes on the left:





Very loooooooooooong queue and a maximum speed of 30 km/h



M6 overpass:



The traffic was going so fast that I had time to stop and take this mirror picture:



M0 expansion works:



Reason for traffic going so slow:



More works:







Taking the M7 exit to Balaton and Zagreb (my destination):

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Old September 4th, 2011, 07:39 PM   #4658
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M7

Exiting M0 towards M7 - Balaton:



M0 seen from M7 overpass:



Siófok - 87 km (short stop at Balaton Lake):



Zagreb - 328 km (my destination):



Electronic sign:



Maybe the most important exit on M7:





Taking the exit in Siófok:

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Old September 4th, 2011, 07:45 PM   #4659
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
Entrance in Hungary at Nagylak border crossing with Romania:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-z...o/DSC_0021.JPG
What's with the prohibitions for trucks to overtake on the motorway lately? One country stupidity is another country wisdom? At least Hungary allowed to overtake during the night, unlike epic fail from Slovakia.
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Old September 4th, 2011, 08:05 PM   #4660
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RipleyLV View Post
What's with the prohibitions for trucks to overtake on the motorway lately? One country stupidity is another country wisdom? At least Hungary allowed to overtake during the night, unlike epic fail from Slovakia.
I've zoomed the original picture in my PC and there is written 06-22, so this ban is valid only during the day.

Next set of pictures. Back on M7:



There were a lot of signs like this. Stop if you are tired:



Sand-storm?





Kőröshegy viaduct:


I have better pictures of the viaduct at the return trip.







Some roadworks:



M7 - M70 interchange:





Nice overpass:



Hungarian / Croatian border crossing ahead:

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