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Old March 25th, 2012, 01:26 PM   #5021
Kese
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
M3 is an outlier of Hungarian motorway construction. I don't get why it has to be constructed towards Berehove in the first place, routes Uzhhorod or Satu Mare seems like the most traffic-intense roads in that area to me. The construction of M4 seems more viable.
What is an "outlier"?

Imo this section of M3 is the right kind of development for a number of reasons. First os all there is a branch planned to the direction of Satu Mare forking off in the vicinity of Mátészalka. Plus the main direction is not so much Berehove, but further on it is heading for Mukachevo, which is a few kilometers straight down the line. Mukachevo is much closer to the geometrical center of "Zakarpatskaya oblast" than Uzhorod is, which is oddly positioned here, and it is the second largest city there, trailing Uzhorod by only about 20K in terms of population, and most importantly the oblast's main road connection with the rest of Ukraine is along a fairly straight line between Ivano Frankivsk and Mukachevo - first along Latorica river. Also let us not forget, that there is a fairly good road connection between Nyíregyháza and Uzhorod already, which IMO will be enough in the foreseeable future. We Hungarians should concentrate on opening up the direction of Hust, Rachiv, as our secondary preference now.
As far as M4 is concerned, I think it is a different story.
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Old March 25th, 2012, 01:43 PM   #5022
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I assume that the M3 routing aims to Mukačevo, where E50/M06 begins to cross the Carpathians. Also, the route Mukačevo - Užhorod is in pretty fine condition, contrary to the Čop - Užhorod road. So it makes a lot of sense, especially if M3 is supposed to take over the transit from Ukraine to the Alpe-Adria region (ex-YU, northern Italy and Austria as well)
Well, you were faster. We agree on this. Afaik the Chop Uzhorod road is not bad at all, at least it looked fairly good the last time I drove there, which was a few years back. Nyíregyháza Chop is in excellent condition.
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Old March 25th, 2012, 02:50 PM   #5023
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Well, you were faster. We agree on this. Afaik the Chop Uzhorod road is not bad at all, at least it looked fairly good the last time I drove there, which was a few years back. Nyíregyháza Chop is in excellent condition.
Road 41 is also in good condition, and it runs through almost no inhabited area. There is no need for a full profile motorway in that region at all. Those 45 kilometers between Nyiregyháza and Vásárosnamény would do very good use between, lets say, Budapest and Szolnok.
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Old March 25th, 2012, 03:02 PM   #5024
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What is an "outlier"?
The term outlier comes from statistics. It means something that lies outside the normal range. For example, if you have a thousand data points and you're not very confident about the measurement accuracies, you might throw out several outliers at each end of the distribution.

In this context, it just means that it is not typical or representative of the usual case.
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Old March 25th, 2012, 03:16 PM   #5025
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There is definitely no need for a full profile motorway there.
I shouldn't say anything if Hungary had a good motorway network but we have several 1+1 roads, through towns ad villages, having an AADT over 10,000, some even closer to 20,000.
M2 does not run across residential area but has an AADT of 25,000 on a 1+1 equipment.

And, actually, I am very disappointed aboutit, but M3 is unfortunately not an outlier. We build motorways for very low traffic in some region (see e.g. M60) while heavy traffic has nothing but some old national road in other regions.
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Old March 25th, 2012, 03:28 PM   #5026
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Its a shame that after the M6/M60 disaster the same shit happens again in this country and nobody cares about it "upthere". All we need now is a couple of tunnels on M3 out in the flatlands somewhere...
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Old March 25th, 2012, 03:29 PM   #5027
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Well, M60 at least connects a major city (Pécs). M3 does not. Nyíregyháza is the easternmost major city in Hungary. Vásárosnamény has only 9.000 inhabitants. I don't think cross-border traffic is currently so intensive it needs a motorway.

M3 would've been a good addition in the future, but there are higher priorities in Hungary currently. I think M2 is much more urgent, and maybe a high-standard road from Budapest northwest to the Esztergom area. And of course the final link of M0, although I reckon the cost of finishing M0 is significantly higher than the construction of M3 east of Nyíregyháza.
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Old March 25th, 2012, 03:35 PM   #5028
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Well, M60 at least connects a major city (Pécs). M3 does not. Nyíregyháza is the easternmost major city in Hungary. Vásárosnamény has only 9.000 inhabitants. I don't think cross-border traffic is currently so intensive it needs a motorway.
Lets face it, M60 connects Pécs with Mohács, and thats it. There is no other use for this motorway. Everybody else travelling from Budapest to Pécs takes road 6 from Szekszárd.
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Old March 25th, 2012, 03:42 PM   #5029
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I wonder why they didn't construct M6 closer to Pécs, bypassing Szekszárd on the west.
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Old March 25th, 2012, 04:27 PM   #5030
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attus View Post
We build motorways for expected AADT of 3-6,000 while several 1+1 roads have 15-25,000...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
M3 is an outlier of Hungarian motorway construction. I don't get why it has to be constructed towards Berehove in the first place, routes Uzhhorod or Satu Mare seems like the most traffic-intense roads in that area to me. The construction of M4 seems more viable.
not to mention the fact, that the Nyiregyhaza-Vasarosnameny section of #41 is PERFECT in terms of alignment and capacity for at least another 10-15 years provided it gets a new coating (if it needs one, i dont know)

the only redeeming thing would be if they actually EMPLOYED a bunch of people but these days not even a highway construction employs all that many labourers


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
...
higher priorities in Hungary currently
...
#1. highway sections and especially 2 new bridges INSIDE Budapest where anything new immediately gets 50k++ aadt; two sections of the future ringroad (pink) between the current outermost one and M0
#2. M0 full circle and southern widening
#3. M10 Budapest-Dorog
#4. M4 Budapest-Szolnok
#5. M2 widening -Vac
#6. M43 Mako-RO
#7. M85 Gyor-Csorna

(there are others but not full profile or highways)


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I wonder why they didn't construct M6 closer to Pécs, bypassing Szekszárd on the west.
topography


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack_Frost View Post
Lets face it, M60 connects Pécs with Mohács, and thats it. There is no other use for this motorway. Everybody else travelling from Budapest to Pécs takes road 6 from Szekszárd.
I actually enjoy the E-M-P-T-Y, CURVY, WAVY, TUNNELLY sections, sometimes I STOP and see how fast I can accelerate. Okay, rarely, but still.

Last edited by gramercy; March 25th, 2012 at 04:46 PM.
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Old March 25th, 2012, 05:40 PM   #5031
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Routing of M3 is logical, the only problem is that it could take ages before Ukraine builds a proper road from Beregovo to Mukachevo. OTOH, that road is already E58 and E81, so it shouldn't be that bad. Then you only have a short section from Beregovo to the border.
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Old March 25th, 2012, 07:23 PM   #5032
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I actually enjoy the E-M-P-T-Y, CURVY, WAVY, TUNNELLY sections, sometimes I STOP and see how fast I can accelerate. Okay, rarely, but still.
I say do it more often if you want. You will not endanger anybody since there are no cars on that road. Actually you could have a nice, cosy, pick-nick with your family on M60 if you dont want to get disturbed by much traffic. Same goes for M8 Danube bridge. Standing there in the big f***ing nowhere with no connection to anything. And the Dunaföldvár bridge is only a few kilometers away...

Last edited by JackFrost; March 25th, 2012 at 07:32 PM.
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Old March 25th, 2012, 07:24 PM   #5033
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Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Routing of M3 is logical, the only problem is that it could take ages before Ukraine builds a proper road from Beregovo to Mukachevo. OTOH, that road is already E58 and E81, so it shouldn't be that bad. Then you only have a short section from Beregovo to the border.
yes, and until then, we have a nice empty piece of road which leads to nowhere. again. while we could have a decent motorway network by now, when we put the nearly 300 kilometers asphalt to where it is really needed.

no M6 but M4 instead
no M60 but M85 to Csorna instead
no M35 but M86 to Szombathely instead
no M3 Nyiregyháza-Vásárosnamény but widening M2 instead.

just a few examples

Last edited by JackFrost; March 25th, 2012 at 07:31 PM.
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Old March 25th, 2012, 07:47 PM   #5034
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Well, M60 at least connects a major city (Pécs). ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack_Frost View Post
Lets face it, M60 connects Pécs with Mohács, and thats it. There is no other use for this motorway. Everybody else travelling from Budapest to Pécs takes road 6 from Szekszárd.
I agree with you that there are other more important projects, but if you look at this motorway as a future link between Zagreb (HR) and Pécs (H), then it makes sense. Croatia is planning to build A13 motorway to connect Zagreb, Bjelovar and Virovitica, and to go to the Terezino Polje/Barcs border crossing, so this will be a completed motorway link one day.
Today, one section of cca 25 km is completed (from A4 to Vrbovec - that's A12), and section from Vrbovec towards Bjelovar is under construction (A13)

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Old March 25th, 2012, 08:00 PM   #5035
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why not constructing A5 instead? When the bosnians to their part it could be a nice alternative to M7/A4/A1 to get to southern Croatia. Also M6 could carry more traffic.

But I really doubt there will be ever that much traffic between Zagreb-Pécs to justify extending M60.
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Old March 25th, 2012, 08:29 PM   #5036
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An Italy - Romania direct corridor is not that weird. It also connects Ljubljana, Zagreb, Pécs and Szeged via the shortest routes.
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Old March 25th, 2012, 08:38 PM   #5037
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An Italy - Romania direct corridor is not that weird. It also connects Ljubljana, Zagreb, Pécs and Szeged via the shortest routes.
Yes but there is already croatian A3 for connecting Romania with Italy.

Really, nothing against the countryside in Hungary, but in the next 10 years I definately would focus on Budapest and its surroundings. Thats simply not the 21st century what you see in Budapest nowadays. Apart from a few exceptions like finishing M43 and constructing M4 I would put all the money in Budapest and Pest county:

widening M1 to 2x3 from/to Tata
widening M2 from/to Vác
widening M5 to 2x3 from/to Kecskemét
widening M7 to 2x3 to Székesfehérvár
cosntructing M0 11-10
constructing M0 west
constructing M10
constructing KKK
at least 2 more bridges in Budapest

and these are only the road projects
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Old March 25th, 2012, 09:22 PM   #5038
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The EU funding methodology is to fund infrastructure in unproductive areas, not in productive areas like Budapest.
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Old March 25th, 2012, 09:30 PM   #5039
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
An Italy - Romania direct corridor is not that weird. It also connects Ljubljana, Zagreb, Pécs and Szeged via the shortest routes.
That would be awesome. Now all the Romanians that go to/from Italy usually go through Italy - Ljubljana - M7 (Hungary) - Budapest - Szeged

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Originally Posted by Jack_Frost View Post
Yes but there is already croatian A3 for connecting Romania with Italy.
That route is not very used because it passes through Serbia and we don't have a proper road connection between RO & SRB.

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Originally Posted by Jack_Frost View Post
widening M5 to 2x3 from/to Kecskemét
I drove many times on M5 and I think that it would be fine to widen M5 just from Budapest to Dabas/Albertisa exit in the first phase. After that the motorways is almost empty.
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Old March 25th, 2012, 09:33 PM   #5040
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The EU funding methodology is to fund infrastructure in unproductive areas, not in productive areas like Budapest.
which is a big mistake if you ask me.
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