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Old December 19th, 2008, 11:48 PM   #1581
RawLee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majestic View Post
I see. So currently a truck going from let's say Pecs to Romania/Ukraine (I don't know if that kind of traffic is really significant) will take M3 motorway or will rather try to make its way through local roads heading east?
Since the bridge on the Danube is ready,and Szeged also has bridges,it will not use motorways if Romania is the destination.For Ukraine,it might even go west to M7. But this is not about domestic destinations,its about international transportation. And the fastest way will clearly be not Mx and M1,but M9 or M8. And this is especially true if we take into account that M0 will never be a high speed route...
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Old December 20th, 2008, 12:02 AM   #1582
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Thanks for the explanation. I think there must be a M9 link between M6 and M43 in the first place, that would create a direct, fast transit route to the east and south. It's a pity that there will be a missing link between 2x2 section of route 4 and M4 near Szolnok. Why is it not planned as a motorway standard?
Also, it seems like Budapest will remain affected by transit traffic for many more years from now.
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Old December 20th, 2008, 09:33 AM   #1583
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"I see. So currently a truck going from let's say Pecs to Romania/Ukraine (I don't know if that kind of traffic is really significant) will take M3 motorway or will rather try to make its way through local roads heading east?"

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Originally Posted by RawLee View Post
Since the bridge on the Danube is ready,and Szeged also has bridges,it will not use motorways if Romania is the destination.
Well, that is not a satisfactory answer.
To answer the initial question, it depends where the truck goes.
If the truck goes to Nagylak, of course it won't use the motorway (no one in their right mind would use the motorways - through Budapest - to get from Pecs to Szeged anyway). Motorways are very cheap in Hungary. ... but fuel is the most expensive in the region so it pays off to use the motorway.

But if they go to Bors or Petea/Csengersima they will surely use the motorways.

Also trucks will use M5-M7 as a route of transit from Romania (to Italy etc.)

I will comment that, to my surprise, the amount of Romanian trucks on M7 is greater than on M3!!

Last edited by wdw35; December 20th, 2008 at 10:08 AM.
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Old December 20th, 2008, 05:40 PM   #1584
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Originally Posted by wdw35 View Post
I
Now the stupidity continues if you look at the M35 / M4 junction area.
First of all M4 should've been planned NORTH of Berretyoufalu, such as to allow people coming from Debrecen (and Nyiregyhaza) to go west/south on the M4.

2. It's funny how M8 between M5 and M44 is single carriageway, and after the junction, M44 is double carriageway (when, obviously, traffic on the M8 section mentioned above will be greater than on M44).
Also, M4 from M0 to Szolnok should clearly be 2x2.
It is also pretty obvious that M44 is another "political" motorway (much like the M6), and one carriageway woudl've been more than enough from M8 to Bekescsaba (as it's the case of M6, south of Dunaujvaros).
you are damn right.

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3. It's good to see that M43 is now entirely planned 2x2 (I think the initial plan had 2x1 east of Maroslele), but I strongly believe that the M9 section between M5 and M6 should've been in the plan until 2013, at least as 2x1 (instead of, say, doing M44 2x2 or the rest of M9 2x2).
why?
to bypass the beograd-zagreb motorway?


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4. Sad to see that M0 north won't be finalized in the next 5 years. We all know of the various problems of this project, and I think a good alternative would've been a wider motorway bypass, starting from M3 Hatvan, going south of Vac and Estergom and ending in M1 west of Tatabanya.
nope.
you cannot build a motorway in the bend of danube...
(and check the terrain... )
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Old December 20th, 2008, 05:57 PM   #1585
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I think M9(or M8,for that matter) must be built in one phase. If we build it in segments,we lure the traffic from M1 and M3 to the county roads...which will do more harm than if we dont build them at al.
...and your hand will hang into the shit-pot...

(time to wake up... )
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Old December 20th, 2008, 06:04 PM   #1586
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Originally Posted by wdw35 View Post
M8 and M9 are both alternative west-east connections to the M1-M3 corridor...
nope.

M1 and M3 (and M5 and M7) ARE helsinki (europian) corridors...

M8 and M9 are local motorways.

There are no such things as helsinki corridor bypasses...
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Old December 20th, 2008, 06:09 PM   #1587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majestic View Post
I see. So currently a truck going from let's say Pecs to Romania/Ukraine (I don't know if that kind of traffic is really significant) will take M3 motorway or will rather try to make its way through local roads heading east?
Thats a very insignificant traffic... for that volume a good main road is enough (yet and for some decades)
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Old December 20th, 2008, 06:13 PM   #1588
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RawLee View Post
And this is especially true if we take into account that M0 will never be a high speed route...
maybe you dont know: a truck is limited to 90km/h on motorways and 70km/h on expressways...

on the 28km long "M0 south" a truck will loose 5 minutes...

do you think it is a significant time loss on an international route?
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Old December 20th, 2008, 06:20 PM   #1589
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Originally Posted by wdw35 View Post
Also trucks will use M5-M7 as a route of transit from Romania (to Italy etc.)
thats a problem.
they should go on the beograd-zagreb motorway...

advantages: it is shorter and it is ready.
(only problem is the serbian bordercrossing...)
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Old December 20th, 2008, 06:41 PM   #1590
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
maybe you dont know: a truck is limited to 90km/h on motorways and 70km/h on expressways...

on the 28km long "M0 south" a truck will loose 5 minutes...

do you think it is a significant time loss on an international route?
And when was the last day when there wasnt a traffic jam on it? The sooner we get rid of international through-traffic on M0,the later we will have to widen it to 2x4.

Besides,the Romania-Serbia-Croatia-Slovenia-Italy route will never work. They would need to pay toll in 5 different countries, whereas in this case,they only have to buy 4(Romania-Hungary-Austria/Slovenia-Italy). And since the destination is usually Germany,we are the only possible route. No matter how you dont like it or dont want to accept it,we will need M8 or M9 soon. The countries of the Balkans are emerging fast,and only more trucks will come this way,and I dont think anybody in their sane mind would want to direct that traffic into the middle of a 2,5 million agglomeration.

So the conclusion is that we need them. But if we build them in sections,we just unleash the immense freight traffic on the county roads in Tolna,Somogy,Zala and Vas counties until the whole length is built.
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Old December 20th, 2008, 07:09 PM   #1591
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Originally Posted by RawLee View Post
And when was the last day when there wasnt a traffic jam on it? The sooner we get rid of international through-traffic on M0,the later we will have to widen it to 2x4.
with 2x3+1 it will have enough capacity fo a long time.

currently only the M6-M5 section is overcrowded (the M1-M6 section IS NOT) b/c it is a danube crossing for local traffic.

by building the galvani and albertfalvi bridges (and connecting roads) we could reduce significantly the traffic on the danube crossing section of M0 south...

and another important thing:

the M1-M0-M5 and M3-M0-M7 ARE helsinki corridors...

the M8 and M9 are local motor/expressways...

Quote:
Besides,the Romania-Serbia-Croatia-Slovenia-Italy route will never work. They would need to pay toll in 5 different countries, whereas in this case,they only have to buy 4(Romania-Hungary-Austria/Slovenia-Italy).
wow. thats quite a difference...

Quote:
And since the destination is usually Germany,we are the only possible route.
nope.
they can go on the beograd-zagred-maribor-graz-germany route...

Quote:
and I dont think anybody in their sane mind would want to direct that traffic into the middle of a 2,5 million agglomeration.
ok.
what bypasses do you suggest for bratislava, praha, dresden?

they are on the IVth corridor like budapest and their current bypasses (if there are any) are as close to these cities as the M0 to budapest or even closer...
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Old December 20th, 2008, 07:10 PM   #1592
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IMO it's better to just build the motorway so that you're ready for the vast amount of truck traffic that is coming from the Balkan, then just wait and see. We (and Germany) did the last thing and see what happened on the A1 in the Netherlands (undercapacity all the way) and to the A2 in Germany (two major truck routes coming together at Bad Oeynhausen - trouble)
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Old December 20th, 2008, 07:14 PM   #1593
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Yes, It's a political motorway. A 2*1 motorway would be perfect (and recommended). But I don't think M6 would be enough with 2*1.
The short M5-M44 section in M8 would be better with

[
M9 will be 2*1 (I know, the map shows 2*2)![/QUOTE]

What the hell will hungary with 2*1 lanes this not modern, the traffic in future increase not decrease!!!!!!
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Old December 20th, 2008, 08:23 PM   #1594
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But you have the main road. Half of the existing traffic will stay on it.
When we reach 10-12 thousand units a day we can double it easily.
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Old December 20th, 2008, 08:28 PM   #1595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timon91 View Post
IMO it's better to just build the motorway so that you're ready for the vast amount of truck traffic that is coming from the Balkan, then just wait and see. We (and Germany) did the last thing and see what happened on the A1 in the Netherlands (undercapacity all the way) and to the A2 in Germany (two major truck routes coming together at Bad Oeynhausen - trouble)
undercapacity is really a problem, but the solution is not to build new 2x2 routes to alleviate existing 2x2 routes but to widen the existing 2x2s...

you are doing this exactly: widen existing routes from 2x2 to 2x3 or 2x4...
(so the method is right, only the tempo is too slow... )

Our problem is: we are building very expensive motorways for extremely low traffic (e.g. 3-5.000 AADT) while we are postponing very needed motorways and main road bypasses and neglecting our main and local roads...

(an example: the traffic volume on the M0 "east" is about 40-50.000! immediately after its opening!
this traffic is siphoned from local roads!
this is total abnormal to let things degenerate to this scale...
this road should have been built at least 15 years ago...)


(my user title refers to this anomaly... )

Last edited by H123Laci; December 20th, 2008 at 08:41 PM.
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Old December 20th, 2008, 10:30 PM   #1596
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no trucker will choose romania-serbia-croatia-slovenia-italy route because there are 6 border control posts.on romania-hungary-austria/slovenia-italy route there is only ONE control post(romania-hungary joint border control).these border crossings costs lot of time for truckers, and TIME IS MONEY.
it's your job as a country to try to absorb a greater part of international traffic because it generates money(proffit for rest areas, vignettes) and that's why a good infrastructure is necessary.besides,m8 and m9 will connect parts of country that are quite far from current motorways, and will boost economy in some poorer areas.and, if u start thinking now about these motorways, they will be ready probably in 2015-2017 and traffic will increase a lot till then.with m8, m9 and existing radial motorways build till country's borders, motorway system in hungary is quite finished.
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Old December 20th, 2008, 10:36 PM   #1597
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How's the Röszke border crossing into Serbia? I heard the Serbian - Croatian border crossings are pretty bad (strict controls by the military), but Röszke might be better?
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Old December 20th, 2008, 11:13 PM   #1598
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Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
nope.

M1 and M3 (and M5 and M7) ARE helsinki (europian) corridors...

M8 and M9 are local motorways.

There are no such things as helsinki corridor bypasses...
Nope nope.

Helsinki corridors (and TEN and other similar exercises) it's just a load of bureaucratic bull-sh!t, essentially lines drawn by Bruxelles.
Some losers don't have a means to justify their public money paid salaries, so they come up with renumbering E-roads or drawing various corridor maps.
User won't choose roads based on their label as a TEN-T or HC, or other completely irrelevant stuff.

Besides, I was using the notion "corridor" as it is used in Transportation Engineering, has nothing to do with the pan-european corridors.

Last edited by wdw35; December 20th, 2008 at 11:20 PM.
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Old December 21st, 2008, 12:11 AM   #1599
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How's the Röszke border crossing into Serbia? I heard the Serbian - Croatian border crossings are pretty bad (strict controls by the military), but Röszke might be better?
Currently the jam at the checkpoint paralysed Szeged...literally.
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Old December 21st, 2008, 02:02 AM   #1600
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This was Röszke on Saturday:



It means holidays are coming
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