daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old December 22nd, 2008, 04:14 PM   #1621
wdw35
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 471
Likes (Received): 0

edit

Last edited by wdw35; May 18th, 2011 at 01:04 PM.
wdw35 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old December 22nd, 2008, 05:38 PM   #1622
RawLee
Registered User
 
RawLee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Budapest
Posts: 9,447
Likes (Received): 1083

Hungary is not radial because of that. Its simply history,older than the commie times. Hungary will never be multipolar,the city is too central for it.
RawLee no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 22nd, 2008, 05:49 PM   #1623
H123Laci
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Budapest, HUN
Posts: 1,647
Likes (Received): 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by RawLee View Post
Hungary is not radial because of that. Its simply history,older than the commie times. Hungary will never be multipolar,the city is too central for it.
you mean: the capital is too central...

this story goes back to the middle of the 19th century when the railway network started to develop...
H123Laci no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 22nd, 2008, 06:33 PM   #1624
H123Laci
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Budapest, HUN
Posts: 1,647
Likes (Received): 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by wdw35 View Post
Just look at Milan; for everyone that drove in the region: try to imagine what life would be without A21 (hell!).
I dont know Milan...
what is the traffic volume on A4 near Milan and what on the A21?

was A4 a europian corridor, and was it shifted to the A21?

because the AADT of M0 south is about 50.000 of which 10-15.000 is international traffic...

these are ridiculous low numbers this transit doesnt recquire shifting/redirection... yet...


Quote:
Look at Vienna and imagine how much better west - east transit traffic would be handled if the A21 were extended, east up to the A6/A4 junction (around Bruck an der Leitha). And examples could continue...
yes it is really assymetric a litle bit, but extending it to east of the schwechat airport would be enough...

but that alignment is NOT a HUGE bypass...
this way that would be the same as the M0 of budapest... (check the ferihegy airport)


Quote:
Indeed, the cities in our region (Budapest, Zagreb) maybe have not yet reached the economic development to justify this construction, or maybe the infra planners are not sufficiently intelligent to realize the need for such a distant bypass.
the first statement is the right...


Quote:
But someone was saying on the HR forum that instead of building the Zagreb north bypass, it would be better to build a second, further, southern bypass (between A1 and A3). The same is true for Budapest.
nope.
the south bypass of zagreb can be widened to 2x3 and this capacity will be enough for decades...
later a litle bit larger (+10km) 2nd bypass will be needed.. (but not a HUGE +40-60km bypass)


Quote:
Always remember that a matricial infrastructure is the sign of a developed economy, while a radial one is the sign of a less-developed (and centralized, no pun intended) one.
nope.
matricial system is for countries whith MANY LARGE centers... like germany...
radial&orbital system is for countries with ONE LARGE center... like hungary...


we are building the radial motorways at first b/c the most of the traffic goes in radial pattern (towards the "one and only" LARGE center)

far from this LARGE center the capacity of the orbital main roads is enough... YET...

when this capacity will nearing exhaustion we have to start building the orbital motor/expressways...

this is the right schedule of the development of our system...
H123Laci no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 23rd, 2008, 01:54 AM   #1625
Qwert
Moderator
 
Qwert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,413
Likes (Received): 2536

Quote:
Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
thats clear.

they should increase the track toll at least tenfold (a 20-30* increase would be more better) and this revenue would be enough for great developments...

(or everybody would flee from the rail... )
If you increase track toll everybody will flee from the rail. It's case of Slovakia. We have terribly high track toll. Now the government is going to decrease it to avoid strike of railway employees. Maybe it will help to our overcrowded roads as well.
Qwert no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 23rd, 2008, 09:06 AM   #1626
H123Laci
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Budapest, HUN
Posts: 1,647
Likes (Received): 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwert View Post
If you increase track toll everybody will flee from the rail. It's case of Slovakia. We have terribly high track toll. Now the government is going to decrease it to avoid strike of railway employees. Maybe it will help to our overcrowded roads as well.
thats funny.

railway fans always say: "road users should pay for roads more..."

(my little silly ones dont know (or dont want to know) that the road users pay ENOURMOUS amount of money for roads... MUCH MORE what it really costs...)

and when I say: "track users should pay the price of the repair and development of tracks" you reply: it would be toooo much, and nobody would use the tracks...

well, in a market economy it means: it is NOT ECONOMIC...

striking railway emloyees? no problem... fire them!

Last edited by H123Laci; December 23rd, 2008 at 09:12 AM.
H123Laci no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 23rd, 2008, 09:18 PM   #1627
Qwert
Moderator
 
Qwert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,413
Likes (Received): 2536

Quote:
Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
thats funny.

railway fans always say: "road users should pay for roads more..."

(my little silly ones dont know (or dont want to know) that the road users pay ENOURMOUS amount of money for roads... MUCH MORE what it really costs...)

and when I say: "track users should pay the price of the repair and development of tracks" you reply: it would be toooo much, and nobody would use the tracks...

well, in a market economy it means: it is NOT ECONOMIC...

striking railway emloyees? no problem... fire them!
In Slovakia we have ridiculously cheap vignettes for trucks. One year vignette for vehicle from 3.5 to 12t costs € 448.12; for vehicle above 12 t it's € 929.43. But, there are also one month, one week and even one day vignettes. One day vignette for vehicle above 12t costs only € 9.96. Overall incomes from vignettes for vehicles above 3.5 t and 12 t are not enough for maintenance and construction of tolled roads.

One the other hand we have the highest track toll on railways in entire EU. It's about € 9. In Hungary it's € 5, in Austria and Czech Republic it's from € 3 to € 4. Only 33% of the cost of maintenance of railways is paid by state. In Czech Republic and Hungary it's 50%, in Austria it's 70%.

Next year we are going to introduce (hopefully) electronic toll for vehicles above 3.5t and railway toll will decrease (it should be compensated by higher payments from state).

BTW, three Slovak railway companies have about 35 thousand employees. It would be quite complicated to fire them all.
Qwert no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 23rd, 2008, 09:59 PM   #1628
x-type
con los terroristas
 
x-type's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bjelovar [HR]
Posts: 13,471
Likes (Received): 3443

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwert View Post
One day vignette for vehicle above 12t costs only € 9.96.
actually, €11,03. it is SKK 300.- and on the bill there is written also €9,96, but when foreign drivers pay in €, they take €11,03. the same thing do Hungarians - their vignette costs HUF 2760.- but they take 13-15€. the cheapest (except paying in HUF) is to buy it at slovenian selling offices where they take €12
__________________
Svaki dan sanjam autobahn...
x-type no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 23rd, 2008, 10:31 PM   #1629
Qwert
Moderator
 
Qwert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,413
Likes (Received): 2536

Quote:
Originally Posted by x-type View Post
actually, €11,03. it is SKK 300.- and on the bill there is written also €9,96, but when foreign drivers pay in €, they take €11,03. the same thing do Hungarians - their vignette costs HUF 2760.- but they take 13-15€. the cheapest (except paying in HUF) is to buy it at slovenian selling offices where they take €12
Well, official currency in Slovakia is Slovak koruna and for 8 days and 2 and half hour from now it still will be. So paying in some other currency is some kind of extra service which is not for free.
Qwert no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 23rd, 2008, 10:33 PM   #1630
RawLee
Registered User
 
RawLee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Budapest
Posts: 9,447
Likes (Received): 1083

Quote:
Originally Posted by x-type View Post
actually, €11,03. it is SKK 300.- and on the bill there is written also €9,96, but when foreign drivers pay in €, they take €11,03. the same thing do Hungarians - their vignette costs HUF 2760.- but they take 13-15€. the cheapest (except paying in HUF) is to buy it at slovenian selling offices where they take €12
The cheapest is to buy it on-line
RawLee no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 24th, 2008, 11:22 AM   #1631
H123Laci
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Budapest, HUN
Posts: 1,647
Likes (Received): 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwert View Post
Overall incomes from vignettes for vehicles above 3.5 t and 12 t are not enough for maintenance and construction of tolled roads.
and who is talking about vignette income? thats only change...

have you heard about fuel-tax and vehicle tax?
thats about a tenfold income compared to vignettes...

Quote:
Only 33% of the cost of maintenance of railways is paid by state. In Czech Republic and Hungary it's 50%, in Austria it's 70%.
well, this is GOOD NEWS: you only have to raise the track-toll by 50%

Quote:
Next year we are going to introduce (hopefully) electronic toll for vehicles above 3.5t and railway toll will decrease (it should be compensated by higher payments from state).
GOOD IDEA! nice commie idea!

raise the tax for roads to crossfinance the rail...

Quote:
BTW, three Slovak railway companies have about 35 thousand employees. It would be quite complicated to fire them all.
no problem.
in reality they are unemployed peoples "inside the gates of the factory" but their "unemloyment aid" is called salary...

Last edited by H123Laci; December 24th, 2008 at 11:29 AM.
H123Laci no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 25th, 2008, 12:34 AM   #1632
Qwert
Moderator
 
Qwert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,413
Likes (Received): 2536

Quote:
Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
and who is talking about vignette income? thats only change...

have you heard about fuel-tax and vehicle tax?
thats about a tenfold income compared to vignettes...
Railway transporters pay taxes, various payments and they buy fuel (or electricity) as well. Note I'm talking about cargo transporters on both roads and railways. Of course if we would count all incomes from all cars it would be pretty big number. But we must take into account also environmental damages. Not to mention without trucks we would need very few motorways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
well, this is GOOD NEWS: you only have to raise the track-toll by 50%
OK, but then we have to set road toll to pay road maintenance and construction as well. Considering we have to invest at least some € 1 billion, but rather more a year (we are far from that) into construction of new motorways and expressways and their maintenance to get some decent network in relatively close future and only from money from truck toll the prices would be damn high. Railway would be probably cheaper for every distance above 100-150 km. Which, however, doesn't sound as bad idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
GOOD IDEA! nice commie idea!

raise the tax for roads to crossfinance the rail...
We have social-democratic government. At least they claim so. Electronic toll for vehicles above 3.5t was planned years before decreasing of railway toll which was introduced last week. There is no direct connection between it.

If it would depend on me there would be no subsidies at all, but in present conditions it's impossible. For example when all neighbouring countries have lower railway toll it's causing problems to our railways. It would be great not to subsidise both railways and roads. But, it would cause big damages to our economy since other countries would be cheaper. Something like that can be done on EU level, but I'm affraid this Union of European Socialistic Republics is unable to even think of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
no problem.
in reality they are unemployed peoples "inside the gates of the factory" but their "unemloyment aid" is called salary...
ŽSSK (public transport) is heavily subsidised, but public transport is subsidised anywhere. ŽSSK Cargo is even making profit so you certainly cannot say people there are unemployed. There are at least as "employed" as people working for road transporters. ŽSR (railway maintenance) is subsidised for 33%. Since we cannot afford to cancel railways it's quite fair price. Definitely lower than the cost of unemployment aid for all their employees. Decrease of the track toll will increase amount of support for ŽSR, on the other hand it will cause decrease of the support for ŽSSK and it will allow ŽSSK Cargo to make profit also next year. Due to the crisis it would have big problems with high railway toll.

Last edited by Qwert; December 25th, 2008 at 08:09 PM.
Qwert no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 25th, 2008, 01:09 AM   #1633
RawLee
Registered User
 
RawLee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Budapest
Posts: 9,447
Likes (Received): 1083

No matter how one dislikes rail,even the most car dependent USA hauls a large percentage of its cargo on railroads. A country needs rail transport to function. Even car and road building needs railroads...There are things you cant transport on roads efficiently,and this includes people. The cost of moving people via railroad is much lower,then moving them by road vehicles.
RawLee no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 25th, 2008, 10:07 AM   #1634
H123Laci
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Budapest, HUN
Posts: 1,647
Likes (Received): 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by RawLee View Post
No matter how one dislikes rail,even the most car dependent USA hauls a large percentage of its cargo on railroads. A country needs rail transport to function. Even car and road building needs railroads...There are things you cant transport on roads efficiently,and this includes people. The cost of moving people via railroad is much lower,then moving them by road vehicles.
you dont understand even know...

it is not about love and hate... its about thriftiness...

maybe you should examine why the USA rail cargo is profitable and needs no subsidizing...

some causes:
- really huge distances (2 times more as in europe)
- united network with NO borders
- no passanger trains on track
H123Laci no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 25th, 2008, 12:07 PM   #1635
RawLee
Registered User
 
RawLee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Budapest
Posts: 9,447
Likes (Received): 1083

So you think its the way we should be living too,everyone on the roads? Make 10x2 roads in the cities? Pave the countryside?
RawLee no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 25th, 2008, 12:38 PM   #1636
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,614
Likes (Received): 19406

The European railway network is mostly to busy to have extensive cargo rail.

@ RawLee; it is common in most countries besides the really large cities (like Budapest) that most people who travel with public transportation do not have an everyday option in the car. In other words, even if public transport would collapse immediatly the next day, it wouldn't make much of a difference on the roads in the long term.

It is said that less than 10% of the people who travel with PT in the Netherlands have a serious alternative in a car (for everyday, not just for a few days). Since PT is only 10% of the total in the Netherlands, that effectively means only 1% of the total travel prestation would be added to the roads. Frankly, you wouldn't notice that.

Anyway, we're drifting a bit offtopic here.

Are there completion dates for the M6 / A5 Budapest - Osijek? I know the section is not of high priority since the Bosnian part is by far not completed, but imagine 15 years from now... Bosnia and Croatia entered EU and Schengen, both countries with a massive welfare and tourism increase. The old days that the only massive tourism was in Western Europe are long gone. People from central Europe want to go on vacation along the Dalmatian and Montenegrin coast too...
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 25th, 2008, 12:59 PM   #1637
H123Laci
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Budapest, HUN
Posts: 1,647
Likes (Received): 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by RawLee View Post
So you think its the way we should be living too,everyone on the roads? Make 10x2 roads in the cities? Pave the countryside?
1. we were talking about cargo not PT...

2. PT is necessary for those who cant drive or cant afford to drive. but PT is VERY expesive, so the fewer people uses PT the better for budget...

3. PT doesnt mean train. in a small country like hungary intercity PT can be done by buses very efficiently...

4. we need no 2x10 (main) roads in cities only 2x2 or 2x3. but many of our city main roads are 2x1 with no grade separation... thats ridiculous...

5. we dont need to pave the countryside, we only need to increase the paved area by 50% ... (from 0,2% to 0,3% - can you imagine how small fraction is that??)
H123Laci no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 25th, 2008, 01:12 PM   #1638
(HUN)RoGeR
MSc of Chem Engineering
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Budapest
Posts: 1,573
Likes (Received): 356

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Are there completion dates for the M6 / A5 Budapest - Osijek? I know the section is not of high priority since the Bosnian part is by far not completed, but imagine 15 years from now... Bosnia and Croatia entered EU and Schengen, both countries with a massive welfare and tourism increase. The old days that the only massive tourism was in Western Europe are long gone. People from central Europe want to go on vacation along the Dalmatian and Montenegrin coast too...
M6 M0-Érd opened (2008 Sept)
M6 Érd-Dunaújváros opened (2006 May)
M6 Dunaújváros-Szekszárd U/C (Opens 2010 April)
M6 Szekszárd-Bóly U/C (Opens 2010 April)
M6 Bóly-border planned until 2013

The Croatian part? Don't know exactly.
(HUN)RoGeR no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 25th, 2008, 01:53 PM   #1639
RawLee
Registered User
 
RawLee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Budapest
Posts: 9,447
Likes (Received): 1083

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The European railway network is mostly to busy to have extensive cargo rail.

@ RawLee; it is common in most countries besides the really large cities (like Budapest) that most people who travel with public transportation do not have an everyday option in the car. In other words, even if public transport would collapse immediatly the next day, it wouldn't make much of a difference on the roads in the long term.

It is said that less than 10% of the people who travel with PT in the Netherlands have a serious alternative in a car (for everyday, not just for a few days). Since PT is only 10% of the total in the Netherlands, that effectively means only 1% of the total travel prestation would be added to the roads. Frankly, you wouldn't notice that.
According to some numbers,minimum 50% of Budapesters use PT...the jams are because of such people who embrace the car and would die without it,who move out from the city,but still work there(or afraid of PT,even if they live next to a metro station). I,personally,would tax the hell out of them. 4EUR daily if they want to come into the city/village/anything by car. I would remake all roads to 2x1 in the settlements,for christ's sake,people live there! Use public transport wherever its possible. It decreases wear and tear on infrastructure,lowers pollution and congestion...spares a lot of money.

An IC train carries about 500 people...every hour on some lines. Load on M30 to Miskolc is about 10000 vehicles daily. Out of this about 6000 are cars.IC trains alone in 12 hours transports that much people,plus I didnt count ordinary trains...at least half the people who travel use PT... so its safe to conclude that "subsidy" is not an appropriate word in a case where close to half the people are involved. I'd call it "redistribution of money",from the rich to the poorer(which is the purpose of taxes and governments BTW). I dont see any money from the military,healthcare,education,shall I say they are subsidized,and hence,stopped? If someone dont like the high taxes on cars and motor vehicles,then dont buy them. You have an alternative...but if you do,then accept the fact that the world dont revolve around you and your car.
RawLee no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 25th, 2008, 02:02 PM   #1640
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,614
Likes (Received): 19406

Rawlee, I said "besides Budapest". Comparing some intercity line with a regional motorway in a rural area is also not really fair.

That 50% number says nothing. It says that 50% of the people in Budapest use public transportation, but it doesn't say how often, nor does it presents the travel prestation.

I always find it funny that rail users want drivers to pay 500% of the actual price, and toll 'em even more, while they scream bloody murder if the subsidize level drops from 70% to 50%.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
budapest, highways, hungary, motorways

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium