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Old December 25th, 2008, 02:03 PM   #1641
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Originally Posted by Qwert View Post
Railway transporters pay taxes, various payments and they buy fuel (or electricity) as well. Note I'm talking about cargo transporters on both roads and railways. Of course if we would count all incomes from all cars it would be pretty big number. But we must take into account also environmental damages.
what kind of taxes? they pays NO exclusive taxes as road users do:

they pay NO fuel tax, pay NO registration tax, pay NO environment/weight tax, pay NO propety gain tax, pay NO "I ripp of the 7th skin from you" tax, etc...

what kind of taxes do they pay what a road user doesnt?

and how can you take into account the environmental damages?
how do you calculate it?
and do you calculate paralelly the economic advantage of the increased mobility?

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Not to mention without trucks we would need very few motorways.
Are you serious?

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OK, but then we have to set road toll to pay road maintentance and construciton as well. Considering we have to invest at least some € 1 billion, but rather more a year (we are far from that) into construction of new motorways and expressways and their maintentance to get some decent network in realtively close future and only from money from truck toll the prices would be damn high. Railway would be probably cheaper for every distance above 100-150 km. Which, however, doesn't sound as bad idea.
you dont understand even now:

road users pay ENORMOUS toll. it is called: fuel tax or fuel duty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax

In the United States, the fuel tax receipts are often dedicated or hypothecated to transportation projects so that the fuel tax is considered by many a user fee.

In other countries (EUROPE!), the fuel tax is a source of general revenue.



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We have social-democratic government. At least they claim so. Electronic toll for vehicles above 3.5t was planned years before decreasing of railway toll which was introduced last week. There is no direct connection between it.
well, if you tax someone and subsidize another one, IMO its a connection.
if its not direct connection then its INdirect connection...

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If it would depend on me there would be no subsidies at all, but in present conditions it's impossible. For example when all neighbouring countries have lower railway toll it's causing problems to our railways.
why? do the international rail cargo avoid your country?
well, itt good: fewer income, but more fewer cost on track for budget...

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It would be great not to subsidise both railways and roads. But, it would cause big damages to our economy since other countries would be cheaper. Something like that can be done on EU level, but I'm affraid this Union of European Socialistic Republics is unable to even think of it.
nope.
without subsidy the rail would be more expensive, the road would be cheaper,the economy would be more competitive and the greeines would be more angry...
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Old December 25th, 2008, 02:25 PM   #1642
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I always find it funny that rail users want drivers to pay 500% of the actual price, and toll 'em even more, while they scream bloody murder if the subsidize level drops from 70% to 50%.
I can only tell you an example why I think its the way should be I said:

There's a street near my home. The locals,when the area was built,protested against completing a road,so that there can be no cross-traffic. Now tell me,why should they be allowed to use their cars,if they dont want others to do so? My intention is,that if they want to work here,or do stuff here,then live here,or if they dont want to live here,then dont make it worse for those who do want to live here. If they still do so,then at least feel it on their wallets that they are bringing discomfort to someone else's life.
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Old December 25th, 2008, 02:39 PM   #1643
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Use public transport wherever its possible. It decreases wear and tear on infrastructure,lowers pollution and congestion...spares a lot of money.
you are beyond hope.

emigrate to north korea, thats the place for you...
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Old December 25th, 2008, 02:41 PM   #1644
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@ Rawlee; Hungary is a free country and everyone can drive anywhere he wants, traffic laws permitting. And they pay bigtime for it. If you don't want to live in a bustling city, move to the countryside.
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Old December 25th, 2008, 02:49 PM   #1645
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If someone dont like the high taxes on cars and motor vehicles,then dont buy them. You have an alternative...but if you do,then accept the fact that the world dont revolve around you and your car.
have you heard about families?

cars are not single seated, most of them are 5 seated...


the price of the heavily taxated car journey is lower! than two passanger ticket for PT on an intercity route...

(not mentioning an inter-VILLAGE tour where you have to take huge detours and change PT vehicles many times)

so in reality those who are poor go by car to spare money...
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Old December 25th, 2008, 02:52 PM   #1646
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
And they pay bigtime for it.
what does this mean?

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If you don't want to live in a bustling city, move to the countryside.
yeah.
his opinion would change very quickly...
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Old December 25th, 2008, 02:58 PM   #1647
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...at least half the people who travel use PT... so its safe to conclude that "subsidy" is not an appropriate word in a case where close to half the people are involved. I'd call it "redistribution of money",from the rich to the poorer(which is the purpose of taxes and governments BTW).
yeah.
the elderly peoples, the kinders, the pupils and the disabled peoples use trains in intercity travel.

(free of charge or very discounted price... )
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Old December 25th, 2008, 03:09 PM   #1648
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Actually Intercity trains are more profitable due to more occasional travellers and 1st class travellers. On commuter trains everybody travels with a discountprogram which is horrible for it's cost-efficiency...
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Old December 25th, 2008, 03:10 PM   #1649
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I can only tell you an example why I think its the way should be I said:
There's a street near my home. The locals,when the area was built,protested against completing a road,so that there can be no cross-traffic.
transit roads has NOT to be built on local streets, but on corridors between residential areas with grade separation and noise protection walls...

check the american suburbs:
the residential areas with dead end road network are small islands in the grid of the high capacity expressways...
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Old December 25th, 2008, 03:15 PM   #1650
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Actually Intercity trains are more profitable due to more occasional travellers and 1st class travellers. On commuter trains everybody travels with a discountprogram which is horrible for it's cost-efficiency...
in hugary the price of the trains (and buses) are distance proportional...

hence the 200km IC ticket cost 4 times more as a 50km ticket for a commuter...
(not counting the extra price of the seat on IC)

there is no discount for commuters in hungary...
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Old December 25th, 2008, 03:25 PM   #1651
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Actually Intercity trains are more profitable due to more occasional travellers and 1st class travellers. On commuter trains everybody travels with a discountprogram which is horrible for it's cost-efficiency...
In Hungary the whole PT would be fully profitable, but the firms (BKV, MÁV) has very poor efficiency.
The money they get would be far enough, but they produce 10 billions of deficit pro year.
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Old December 25th, 2008, 03:32 PM   #1652
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M6 M0-Érd opened (2008 Sept)
M6 Érd-Dunaújváros opened (2006 May)
M6 Dunaújváros-Szekszárd U/C (Opens 2010 April)
M6 Szekszárd-Bóly U/C (Opens 2010 April)
M6 Bóly-border planned until 2013

The Croatian part? Don't know exactly.
A5 Sredanci (A3) - Đakovo opened (november 2007)
A5 Đakovo - Osijek U/C (opening april 2009)
A5 Svilaj (BIH border) - Sredanci planned till 2013
A5 Osijek - H border planned till 2013
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Old December 25th, 2008, 04:11 PM   #1653
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The money they get would be far enough, but they produce 10 billions of deficit pro year.
you mean: 100billions...(in HUF)

this is quite a huge amount of money and it would be very effectively used on the development of the road network...
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Old December 25th, 2008, 04:28 PM   #1654
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Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
you mean: 100billions...(in HUF)

this is quite a huge amount of money and it would be very effectively used on the development of the road network...
No, "only" a 50-60 billion HUF the deficit. Not the subsidy.

The amount of subsidy would be OK (the form not), with normal BKV and MÁV.
The PT could be a good alternative for intercity and commuting.
A good transport network can decrease the capacity demand of roads, and this could be cheaper than build an urban higway-network.

And the "everything for the economy" or "everything for the ecology" points are a huge bullshit. We have to find the balance between economy and ecology and we have to balance with tax and subsidy.
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Old December 25th, 2008, 05:34 PM   #1655
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A5 Sredanci (A3) - Đakovo opened (november 2007)
A5 Đakovo - Osijek U/C (opening april 2009)
A5 Svilaj (BIH border) - Sredanci planned till 2013
A5 Osijek - H border planned till 2013
Thanks a lot. That part south of the A3 is only like a few kilometers until the BIH border. Osijek is now the largest Croatian city not connected to any motorway network.

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Originally Posted by (HUN)RoGeR View Post
And the "everything for the economy" or "everything for the ecology" points are a huge bullshit. We have to find the balance between economy and ecology and we have to balance with tax and subsidy.
I agree. It's often put like roads and public transport (especially rail) should compete with eachother. I'd rather say they complement eachother. Public transportation stands no chance in rural and suburban area's, and taking the train cq subway when you want to visit downtown is a very good choice, you don't need to find a parking space, handle busy traffic etc. Park+Ride is also a good idea, but not practical for everyone.
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Old December 25th, 2008, 06:32 PM   #1656
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Thanks a lot. That part south of the A3 is only like a few kilometers until the BIH border. Osijek is now the largest Croatian city not connected to any motorway network.
yes, according to plans it should be 3 km long. i'm wondering about bosnian part because there are no some larg roads at the other side of the river, so they should build at least some connectiong road. and there should be built completely new bridge, too. but anyway, there are 2 border crossings nearby, in Slavonski Brod and in Slavonski Šamac, so entering BIH is nothard, but without new border crossing not that comfortable as it should be.

and yes, Osijek is the largest city without direct connection to motorway network (it is 4th largest city in HR).
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Old December 25th, 2008, 08:17 PM   #1657
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Ok,one last time,I bring up numbers,because you seem to be talking out of your ass. Last year,all tax incomes in settlements were 505 billion HUF(including local industrial tax!!!),car registration tax was 22 billion HUF...Even if I include various value-taxes,it wont give you thousands of billions.

This wont even be enough to maintain the infrastructure,let alone expand it the pace it is currently done,so please,until you bring up facts, keep quiet regarding "redistribution of money",ok?

(source:http://www1.pm.gov.hu/

And please,leave your beloved "fuel tax" at home,its paid by the oil companies,not you. The country is built from the money companies are paying,Audi and MOL pays more tax than a million people here...
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Old December 25th, 2008, 08:21 PM   #1658
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Guess where those oil companies get that fuel tax money from

Vignette and Registration fees are not the main source of income, it are the fuel taxes! They are by far the highest in absolute numbers. In Europe, generally 50 - 60% of the fuel prices are taxes! This is no different in Hungary, or do you have petrol sold at € 0,50?
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Old December 25th, 2008, 08:33 PM   #1659
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In the end,all taxes are paid by the people,so either include the tax on iron ore and coal in the cost of the ticket for the train,or skip them all. Besides,I really doubt its that 3 million cars that generate the bulk of that tax,and not the trucks(including many foreign,and we skipped the immense consumption of airplanes and diesel locomotives),who traverse the country. If maybe accidentally its the truckers who pay the bulk of that tax,then there's really no point in speaking against "subsidizing" rail,and in general private,transport,because its not "our money" from which these are subsidized.
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Old December 26th, 2008, 01:32 AM   #1660
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Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
what kind of taxes? they pays NO exclusive taxes as road users do:

they pay NO fuel tax, pay NO registration tax, pay NO environment/weight tax, pay NO propety gain tax, pay NO "I ripp of the 7th skin from you" tax, etc...

what kind of taxes do they pay what a road user doesnt?
I'm not sure about Hungary, but in Slovakia railway transporters pay all those taxes mentioned by you (or similar ones), maybe except that "rip off" one.

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Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
and how can you take into account the environmental damages?
how do you calculate it?
and do you calculate paralelly the economic advantage of the increased mobility?
I cannot calculate it, but I'm sure if I compare damages by trucks and trains transporting the same amount of cargo then railway damages are much lower. Of course often it's necessary to use roads.

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Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
Are you serious?
Trucks are one of the main reasons why we have to built motorways.

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Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
you dont understand even now:

road users pay ENORMOUS toll. it is called: fuel tax or fuel duty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax

In the United States, the fuel tax receipts are often dedicated or hypothecated to transportation projects so that the fuel tax is considered by many a user fee.

In other countries (EUROPE!), the fuel tax is a source of general revenue.
We are still talking about cargo transporters, right? As I've said, all tax and toll incomes from trucks are not enough for road maintenance and construction of new roads. If you count all incomes from all petroleum products sales tax then you get pretty high number (in Slovakia it was € 1.12 billion in 2007), but this is by far not paid by road cargo transporters only.

Of course I agree incomes from fuel tax paid by road users should be used to develop road infrastructure and for ecological purposes.


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Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
well, if you tax someone and subsidize another one, IMO its a connection.
if its not direct connection then its INdirect connection...
What's wrong with tolling roads for vehicles above 3.5t? Last year incomes from all vignettes (not only for trucks) were ridiculous € 74.98 million. In 2009 official expect incomes € 181 million only from vehicles above 3.5 t thanks to the toll. Still it's nothing if I compare it e.g. to 9 km long motorway in Považská Bystrica which costs € 300 million.

There is not even indirect connection. Higher subsidies for railways won't affect budget for roads.

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why? do the international rail cargo avoid your country?
well, itt good: fewer income, but more fewer cost on track for budget...
Railways must be maintained anyway. There are numerous factories which cannot exist without railways. Public transport is also unimaginable without railways. So the more trains using them the better.

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Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
nope.
without subsidy the rail would be more expensive, the road would be cheaper,the economy would be more competitive and the greeines would be more angry...
I have to correct myself a bit. IMO it's not possible to say roads or railways would be cheaper or more expansive than each other in general. It varies due to many reasons.
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