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Old December 26th, 2008, 02:17 AM   #1661
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Old December 26th, 2008, 09:03 AM   #1662
H123Laci
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwert View Post
I'm not sure about Hungary, but in Slovakia railway transporters pay all those taxes mentioned by you (or similar ones), maybe except that "rip off" one.
certainly... maybe you are sure that the strok brings the baby...

Quote:
Trucks are one of the main reasons why we have to built motorways.
yeah. 60-80% of the traffic is car but we build motorways for trucks...
I dont debate faith...


Quote:
We are still talking about cargo transporters, right? As I've said, all tax and toll incomes from trucks are not enough for road maintenance and construction of new roads. If you count all incomes from all petroleum products sales tax then you get pretty high number (in Slovakia it was € 1.12 billion in 2007), but this is by far not paid by road cargo transporters only.
I dont understand why do you want to make tucks pay the price of roads?
why dont you want to make blond drivers pay for it? or red cars? maybe cars with odd licence plates?


Quote:
Of course I agree incomes from fuel tax paid by road users should be used to develop road infrastructure and for ecological purposes.
at least we agree in this issue...

Quote:
What's wrong with tolling roads for vehicles above 3.5t? Last year incomes from all vignettes (not only for trucks) were ridiculous € 74.98 million. In 2009 official expect incomes € 181 million only from vehicles above 3.5 t thanks to the toll.
Nothing. Except it raises prises... (or do you like high prices?)
and if you want to tax hauling then you should tax rail cargo too... (and not subsidize it... )

Quote:
Still it's nothing if I compare it e.g. to 9 km long motorway in Považská Bystrica which costs € 300 million.
wow. thats ******* expensive...


Quote:
There is not even indirect connection. Higher subsidies for railways won't affect budget for roads.
nope.
budget is not infinite, so there is an indirect connection...

Quote:
Railways must be maintained anyway. There are numerous factories which cannot exist without railways.
I dindt say: stop maintaining.
I did say: make rail users pay the price of the maintaining...


Quote:
Public transport is also unimaginable without railways. So the more trains using them the better.
nope. have you heard about buses?

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I have to correct myself a bit. IMO it's not possible to say roads or railways would be cheaper or more expansive than each other in general. It varies due to many reasons.
yeah thas right.
bulk goods (ore, coal, grain) on large distances can be hauled cheaper by trains...

Last edited by H123Laci; December 26th, 2008 at 09:08 AM.
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Old December 26th, 2008, 09:27 AM   #1663
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RawLee View Post
car registration tax was 22 billion HUF...Even if I include various value-taxes,it wont give you thousands of billions.
nope.
car registration tax is at least 100-150billion...
heres the tax table: http://totalcar.hu/tanacsok/totalvam/041025a/


Quote:
This wont even be enough to maintain the infrastructure,let alone expand it the pace it is currently done,so please,until you bring up facts, keep quiet regarding "redistribution of money",ok?
facts? here you are:
yearly fuel consumption of cars: 3,5billion liters
fuel tax: 110Ft/liter (average)
it makes 385mrd fuel tax revenue...


Quote:
And please,leave your beloved "fuel tax" at home,its paid by the oil companies,not you. The country is built from the money companies are paying,Audi and MOL pays more tax than a million people here...
yeah, you are right.

people PAY NOTHING b/c they get the money from the companies and the state, so EVERYTHING is paid by companies and the state...
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Old December 26th, 2008, 10:18 AM   #1664
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LOL: I quoted the finance ministry,and you counter with a lousy article,in which there's not a single mention of "100 billion"...

This july,~14000 cars were sold. For an 1401ccm car,worse than category 5,its 378 000 HUF. Thats 5 billion in that month. Even if you multiply it with 12,its only 60 billion,and much of the cars are not 1400ccm...

And again,that 3,5 billion litres include trains and airplanes too,which burn much more fuel than your tiny car. The real consumers are truck,for whom it doesnt really matter if its ordinary road or motorway,as they cant really go faster than 90 anyway.

And as I said,we can include fuel tax in the conversation,but then include all the other taxes too that are paid by us indirectly like VAT. And,of course, include that fuel tax in every other services we mention in the conversation.
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Old December 26th, 2008, 10:53 AM   #1665
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Oh,and BTW!the toll railway companies pay for the tracks:
http://www.vpe.hu/takt/phd_lista.php

MÁV
közlekedtetés
személy
Helyi személyszállító vonat
I.
578
ft/vkm

MÁV pays for an ordinary train 578HUF/km...how much you pay if you go to Nyíregyháza/km?

And this doesnt include overhead wire usage,station usage, and capacity reservation.
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Old December 26th, 2008, 11:40 AM   #1666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RawLee View Post
MÁV pays for an ordinary train 578HUF/km...how much you pay if you go to Nyíregyháza/km?

And this doesnt include overhead wire usage,station usage, and capacity reservation.
about 9Ft/km in fuel tax.
the other taxes and tolls are fix costs so your milage determines the "pro km" cost...

but what does it matter?

the matter is: how do the revenues relate to the expenditures...

Qwert said: the revenue from the track toll is only the 50% of the cost of the track maintaining (in hungary).
so it should be doubled to be equal...
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Old December 26th, 2008, 11:47 AM   #1667
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Well,motorway maintenance isnt going to happen from toll,is it? So currently,its the roads that are more heavily subsidized. At least,track usage pays half the maintenance.

If you include the fuel tax,then include the fuel tax for trains too(and dont forget to theoretically replace electric locos with diesel ones,as it would be a bit unfair to compare something that isnt using gas to something that does).

You are clearly biased,and as such,cant accept if you're wrong,like in this case.
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Old December 26th, 2008, 12:04 PM   #1668
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RawLee View Post
This july,~14000 cars were sold. For an 1401ccm car,worse than category 5,its 378 000 HUF. Thats 5 billion in that month. Even if you multiply it with 12,its only 60 billion,and much of the cars are not 1400ccm...
but there are cars with larger engines and trucks too...

so calculating with an 1600cm3 average is a good estimate...

can we agree in a 100billion estimate?

Quote:
And again,that 3,5 billion litres include trains and airplanes too,which burn much more fuel than your tiny car.
nope, their consumption is above this. (the national consumption is about 5billion liters)

but - maybe you dont know - agricultural machines, trains, ships and airplanes dont have to pay fuel tax...

Quote:
The real consumers are truck,for whom it doesnt really matter if its ordinary road or motorway,as they cant really go faster than 90 anyway.
and what do you want to say with that?

I dont think we should pay extra toll for motorways...
why?
ordinary roads cost money too...
and motorways are for large capacity and safety... so it is better and cheaper to build a 2x2 motorway for up to 80.000 (AADT) than 3, 5 or 8 paralell main roads...

Quote:
And as I said,we can include fuel tax in the conversation,but then include all the other taxes too that are paid by us indirectly like VAT. And,of course, include that fuel tax in every other services we mention in the conversation.
nope.
VAT is not specific tax, its a general tax on almost every goods and services.
it is apropriate that it is part of the general revenue of the budget...
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Old December 26th, 2008, 12:17 PM   #1669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RawLee View Post
Well,motorway maintenance isnt going to happen from toll,is it? So currently,its the roads that are more heavily subsidized. At least,track usage pays half the maintenance.
the toll (vignette) revenue is about 50-60 billion HUF in hungary.
I dont know where this money goes to... anyway I dont think it all goes to the maintenance of motorways... (it would be 50million/km it seems to be to much)
but I have to admit: the quality of the maintenance is quite prima primissima...

the "other roads" (30.000km national road) are maintained from a 25billion budget...
thats ridiculous low, and the result is well-known: they are in extremely bad state...

Quote:
If you include the fuel tax,then include the fuel tax for trains too(and dont forget to theoretically replace electric locos with diesel ones,as it would be a bit unfair to compare something that isnt using gas to something that does).
as i said: theres NO fuel tax for trains. (nor for diesel, neither for electric trains)
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Old December 26th, 2008, 12:23 PM   #1670
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Yeah,MOL(a private company BTW),sells them fuel for free

Registration tax for trucks:they dont have to pay

Vonatkozik-e a regisztrációs adó az importált teherautóra? Nem vonatkozik, ugyanis személygépkocsikra rótta ki a regisztrációs adót a 2003. évi CX.törvény

http://www.magyarorszag.hu/ugyfelvon...0704_134.shtml


Please,stop this stupid argument,all your points are false,and you talk out of your ass...
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Old December 26th, 2008, 12:25 PM   #1671
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H123Laci View Post
the "other roads" (30.000km national road) are maintained from a 25billion budget...
thats ridiculous low, and the result is well-known: they are in extremely bad state...
Because drivers dont pay a fillér for them,they are completely free,unlike even secondary lines for trains...just get over it,car owners dont pay nearly enough to maintain the infrastructure,even if we include trucks
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Old December 26th, 2008, 12:31 PM   #1672
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RawLee View Post
Yeah,MOL(a private company BTW),sells them fuel for free
nope.
MOL sells it on full price (with fuel tax)

but the subsidized vehicles can claim back the fuel tax from the APEH...

Quote:
Please,stop this stupid argument,all your points are false,and you talk out of your ass...
is this your ultimate argument?
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Old December 26th, 2008, 12:33 PM   #1673
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RawLee View Post
Because drivers dont pay a fillér for them,they are completely free,unlike even secondary lines for trains...just get over it,car owners dont pay nearly enough to maintain the infrastructure,even if we include trucks
why do I feel as if I am talking to a wall?

one last attempt:

FUEL TAX = USER FEE

is it clear?
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Old December 26th, 2008, 12:53 PM   #1674
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Fuel tax =/= user fee,because you dont have to pay it after electric vehicles. Your logic is based of false assumptions. Fee paid after travelling on all kind of roads per km would be a fee. Fuel tax is a tax on carbohydrates. It is present on all kind of minerals,though called differently.

So far,I'm the only one who backed up my statements with credible,official sources. You just keep pushing popular stereotypes.
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Old December 26th, 2008, 02:02 PM   #1675
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RawLee View Post
Fuel tax =/= user fee,because you dont have to pay it after electric vehicles.
in this case the train ticket is NOT a USER FEE cause people under 6 and above 70 do not pay for tickets...

anyway the problem is real:
what will the goverments do when the electric cars will be common?
how will they tax their electric energy consumption?


Quote:
Your logic is based of false assumptions. Fee paid after travelling on all kind of roads per km would be a fee.
nope.
FEE can be paid in fuel (and this is the most effective tolling method, cause it is easily collectable but hardly aviodable, and proportional with the distance.)


Quote:
Fuel tax is a tax on carbohydrates. It is present on all kind of minerals,though called differently.
nope.
fuel tax is only on the fuels for road vehicles...
theres no fuel tax for other vehicles, and theres no electricity tax for electric vehicles, and no "carbohydrate tax" for powerplants, factories and for the people in hungary...

Quote:
So far,I'm the only one who backed up my statements with credible,official sources. You just keep pushing popular stereotypes.
maybe you should get off from writeONLY mode and read the following link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax
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Old December 26th, 2008, 05:37 PM   #1676
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I don't think you guys can get to an agreement

I must say it's a difficult topic to discuss. Road taxes, rail fees, rail subsidies, road subsidies etc. are extremely non-transparent. There are direct subsidies, infrastructural subsidies, stimulation packages etc.
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Old December 26th, 2008, 10:06 PM   #1677
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nor do I...

yeah you are right: the main problem is the (non)transparency...

and without transparent revenues and expenditures many people (mainly rain fans) think the roads are heavily subsidized...

and how could we argue about this topic without the undebated official basic information?


anyway I think this argument wasnt useless for me, cause I learnt some new information...
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Old December 27th, 2008, 10:55 AM   #1678
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I don't think you guys can get to an agreement

I must say it's a difficult topic to discuss. Road taxes, rail fees, rail subsidies, road subsidies etc. are extremely non-transparent. There are direct subsidies, infrastructural subsidies, stimulation packages etc.
I agree. And the most hard-core drivers will always think their taxes run the country,and everything else is paid by them.
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Old December 27th, 2008, 11:25 AM   #1679
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you dont need to be a hardcore driver to think this, only be informed about the economy...

how many tax do you think a citizen having no car pays?

overwhelming percent of taxes are paid by car owners because overwhelming majority of people who has no car has NO, or has little salary hence pays no tax...

just think about it, its really simple...

The car industry is the engine of the world economy!

NO CAR = NO INDUSTRY = NO WELFARE

or can you say a counterexample?
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Old December 27th, 2008, 06:17 PM   #1680
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That's true, the mobility of the workforce is extremely important, especially on the countryside. When there's limited or no mobility, people never see an increase of welfare. That's why rural areas are nearly always the poorest parts of any country. If you can only work in your own village, that probably would be agriculture. Countries with a great deal of employment in the agricultural sector are nearly always the poorer countries.
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