Ángeles and San Fernando Cities, and Pampanga Province

[hirolionheart]

Originally Posted by deevex75

Malapit na pala matapos yang Q-Mall, kelan target na completion date? Di rin papatalo ang Ayalas, they are also invading Mindanao with its first upcoming mall in the island named Abreeza in Davao City.

Waaahhh! Pwede pa ba nilang palitan yung name na Q-Mall? para kasing Nepa-Q Mart lang eh, hehehe
Buti pa yung Abreeza ng Davao City, aztig yung dating, hehehe

[whippersnapper]

may nakakaalam ba kung ganu kalaki ung Q mall??

[hirolionheart]

Originally Posted by whippersnapper

may nakakaalam ba kung ganu kalaki ung Q mall??

Target opening daw nung Q-Mall sa Angeles City, Pampanga ay May 2009
From page 17/27 of: http://www.pse.com.ph/html/ListedCom...7Q_Jun2008.pdf

Kung gano kalaki, hindi ko pa rin alam, hehehe

[barrera_marquez]

Originally Posted by macabalen

Is your professor from Pangasinan? If "Pangasinense" is so offensive, why the following?

Sun.Star Pangasinan - Poor Pangasinense families to get Philhealth cards

http://www.sunstar.com.ph/static/pan...lth.cards.html
Saturday, October 11, 2008

LINGAYEN -- Indigent families from the third class municipalities in Pangasinan will soon receive their Philhealth cards.

Tuesday, January 01, 2008

http://www.manilatimes.net/national/...80101pro4.html

Dr. Jose Rizal was half-Pangasinense

DAGUPAN CITY: The Philippines’ national hero Dr. Jose Rizal was a Pangasinense by his mother’s side, according to City Administrator Alvin Fernandez, who was guest of honor and speaker during the 111th Rizal Day commemoration rites here on Sunday, reported the Philippine News Agency.
[snip]

Vox Pangasinense

http://www.gcast.com/u/svillafania/
Personal broadcast by svillafania, powered by GCast

Who are Pangasinense here?

pinduko (84) ranked 29 out of 2,661 in philippines 2 years ago
http://www.mylot.com/w/discussions/732431.aspx.

Surely, respected newspapers like the Manila Times and Sun.Star, as well as the City Administrator of Dagupan, and noted Pangasinan poet Sonny Villafania can't all be wrong. They would have been offended and would have refrained from using it if the word "Pangasinense" were indeed unacceptable.


Very well, then, I won't avoid economic arguments. Let's take the bull by the horns. First, the Kapampangan State can stand on its own financially. It is economically viable:
Dr. Rene Azurin: “But, of the proposed eleven (or so) federal states, no more than a few - like the Cebuano state or the Pampangueno-Tarlaqueno state - would actually be able to stand on their own financially."
(Azurin, Rene. On Decentralizing Government, p. 5. Paper presented at the Dialogues on Federalism. Center for Local and Regional Governance, NCPAG, UP Diliman, Quezon City, 3 August 2007. Originally published in the book Stationary Bandits: Essays in Political Power, also by Dr. Azurin. Platypus Press, 2007)

Second, since it has the highest income in Central Luzon (in 2004 and 2005, Pampanga posted the highest export contributions to the Central Luzon region with an annual average export of US$3.1 billion out of the average annual total of US$4.9 billion for the entire Central Luzon), Pampanga, or the Kapampangan State, will be better off with a smaller area, as a state of its own, rather than having to share this with other Central Luzon provinces with less income, which will reduce the standard of living and per capita income of Kapampangans in the process. In other words, economically speaking, it is more advantageous for Kapampangans to be in a richer Kapampangan State, rather than in a larger but poorer Central Luzon state. In the same way that Singapore would be better off by itself, than if it were part of (relatively poorer) Malaysia, and oil-rich Brunei would be better off by itself, than if it were part of a larger, but poorer, Indonesia or Malaysia. This may sound selfish, but you forced me to use economic arguments.

Third, a culturally/linguistically homogeneous population will reduce ethnic tension or misunderstanding, and simplify the linguistic situation (the inhabitants will have to deal with only two languages in their everyday life, Kapampangan - their mother tongue - and perhaps English, which is needed to deal with the outside world because of globalization). This is also an economic argument, since having a linguistically heterogeneous/mixed population will impose additional economic burdens of possible misunderstanding, translation, cultural differences, etc.

As for "Hindi dahil sa culture kundi dahil sa economic capabilities nito.":
I have already cited sources who say that the Kapampangan State is economically feasible, that it can stand on its own financially. That should be enough. If it is also a natural cultural unit, then that's even better. Because Pampanga province is already an economic unit as well as a political one. As for Southern Tarlac, it is linked to Pampanga not just by language and politics (Pampanga and Southern Tarlac were the only areas in Central Luzon where GMA won over FPJ in 2004, and where Estrada did not win in 1998), it is also connected to it by economics: the Clark Special Economic Zone includes the Tarlac towns of Bamban and Capas. And many residents of the Kapampangan-speaking Tarlac town of Concepcion, as well as Tarlac City, also work, study or do business in Clark, the Angeles area or Pampanga, even if their areas are not part of the CSEZ.

And "We can't deny it... we have to wait what is thicker here- the culture or the progress."
It's as if you're saying that you have to choose between culture and progress, which is a fallacy. If you love your state, if you feel a natural affinity to it, if it is part of your blood, your history, your heritage, becoming loyal to it, and working for its progress would be second nature to you. It's the same with your family. You are willing to do anything, to make the greatest sacrifices, to brave even the most difficult conditions, so that your family will get ahead. States which are extensions of the family, which are bound to the citizen by language, kinship (even a distant kinship), history and geography, by long years of acceptance, can be identified with more easily than artificial entities (read: Central Luzon) forced from above on your people by those who do not even have anything to do with your place. A faceless, artificial unit imposed from above without your permission by outsiders does not exactly inspire you to work for its progress, in contrast to a unit that you love, that you consider your own, that is rooted in the collective memory, that can stir your blood and touch your soul.

And, whether or not the entities were based on linguistic or cultural considerations, they will still need to use language, to have an administrative or working state language. And since Tagalogs will be in the majority in CL, that language will almost certainly be Tagalog. That by itself will work to the advantage of Tagalogs, and to the disadvantage of non-Tagalogs, resulting in the discrimination (even if unintended) of non-Tagalogs, and accelerating the destruction of the non-Tagalog languages and cultures.


"You can't be sure." That is already a disadvantage, a handicap, compared to other states whose basis is more natural or historic and therefore much more secure (such as Bicol or Southern Tagalog), which are already sure of the loyalty of their citizens. If in Central Luzon "You can't be sure," in the others, they ARE.

As for "Yun (economic reasons) nga ang dahilan kung bakit ganun ang division ng mga states sa Federal RP," Dr. Azurin says: "But, of the proposed eleven (or so) federal states, no more than a few...would actually be able to stand on their own financially. In contrast, the areas in the proposed Bangsamoro state or in the Bicolano state, for example, raise hardly any revenues and currently benefit greatly from a net transfer of resources from the national government to their provinces and cities."
Azurin, Rene. On Decentralizing Government. Paper presented at the Dialogues on Federalism. Center for Local and Regional Governance, National College of Public Administration and Governance, University of the Philippines. Diliman, Quezon City, 3 August 2007. pp. 5-6. Originally published in the book Stationary Bandits: Essays in Political Power, also by Dr. Azurin. Platypus Press, 2007.

In other words, if Pimentel's states are based on economic rather than cultural considerations, why are most of them, according to Dr. Azurin, economically unviable or not self-sufficient? If they are not based on culture, and if they are economically viable, of what use are they at all?


I'm not against intermarriage per se. But try to find out what the mother tongue, or language spoken, by the children resulting from those intermarriages, is. It would, most likely, be the national language of the Philippines AND the dominant language of Central Luzon - in other words, Tagalog. That's what happens without a linguistic barrier, without territorial protection for the less dominant languages. Soon, everyone will be speaking Tagalog. Which strengthens my argument that a Central Luzon state is bad, even fatal, for languages other than the dominant one.


Being Ayta (in appearance) is not a linguistic matter, it is a matter of ethnicity. It does not change even if you change your language. I'm just curious - what do those Aytas in Olongapo use when speaking to their children? Based on my experience and readings, it is increasingly Tagalog, the dominant language of Olongapo and of CL. CL does not necessarily erase cultural identity, but its very existence as a Tagalog-majority area where Tagalog is the official state language will accelerate pressure to shift to Tagalog, something which is in fact already taking place. Non-Tagalogs should be warned that "The Central Luzon State is dangerous to your language."


In the first place, we (I am referring to Kapampangans like myself here) should question why we should sacrifice for an artificial entity which has no historical basis, which has no identity, language or culture of its own, with whose creation we had nothing to do, that was imposed from above by someone who is not even from the place or has not shown any concern for us, or, for that matter, who did not even consult us if we wanted such a state, in place of a state which would be easier to love, owe loyalty to, fight for, and identify with, a state which is, in addition, also economically viable and sustainable - in other words the Kapampangan or Pampanga State?


How can you increase the number of Kapampangans and Pangasinans if the dominant (and most likely the official state language) is Tagalog in the case of Central Luzon (for Kapampangans) and Ilocano in the case of Northern Luzon (for Pangasinans)? Naturally, a Tagalog-majority state like CL will enforce the majority/dominant tongue, Tagalog, thereby accelerating the death of Kapampangan and other non-Tagalog languages (an analogous situation would exist for Pangasinan in NL). If a culture-based state is not a long-term solution, what is? A state that is NOT culture-based, that ignores culture, would be even more detrimental, even more destructive to the less dominant languages; it would be even less of a solution.

Ang dami kuya... isa-isahin natin...

Hindi ko pa natatanong sa professor ko (actually hindi lang siya professor, Ph.D. in Linguistics kasi siya) kung taga-saang probinsya siya... anyway, stop na tayo roon, nalalayo tayo sa topic natin...

If Kapampangan state can stand on financially on itself... e di mas lalo nga ang CL state... now hindi ako against sa proposal mo... I'm just expressing my opinions... nagkataon na CL state ang gusto ni Pimentel... hindi Kapampangan state...

Now ia-admit ko na mali ako roon sa choosing between culture and economy... now, since we Novo Ecijanos do not have a cultural ancestor (we are only based on 4 cultural ancestors, you all know what is that four) yun nga ang kinakatakot ko, mahati ang probinsya namin... if the CL state appears, ok, if the Kapampangan state appears, ok...

Now, also, you are right that intermarriages can pose a threat since the children will speak Filipino to be able to speak to his/her parents... however, we should also let them expose to the parents' mother languages... admit ko biktima ako niyan kasi nga hindi ako marunong mag-Kapampangan...

Hindi naman dapat sabihin the "CL state is dangerous to your language...," nasa state pa rin talaga iyan kung gusto nila... Sure that is true today na mukhang napapabayaan ng mga LGUs natin ang mga cultural issues natin dahil siguro wala pang sapat na pangil ang mga local governments natin to preserve our languages... (ano ba ang ginagawa ng Komisyon sa Wikang Filipino? Gising naman diyan o!), or wag naman sana pero baka nangungurakot lang sila? Pero maybe kapag federal na tayo, baka makagawa na sila ng mga sapat na paraan upang i-salba ang mga dayalekto natin...

Pangasinans? Pangasinan lang yung territory nila tapos yung mga adjacent areas nila like Tarlac, Nueva Ecija, Zambales, etc. Now tama ka rin doon sa CL state na pwede nilang i-enforce ang majority rule for the sake of communication at dito ko ibibigay sa iyo ang points... hindi ko rin sure kung may gagawin sila para maisalba ang mga wika nila... pero dapat maglagay sila ng rules for preservation of languages... for example dito sa SSC, although we allow local dialects here... kailangang isalin ito sa Filipino or English (or kung ano ang dominant language ng sub-forum) kung may humingi... dapat ganun din sa magiging states natin... hindi ko na hihingin ang mga Filipino translation ng mga Kapampangan words na ginamit niyo ni Kuya Nico kasi nauunawaan ko siya...

Anyway, that's enough na po kuya... marami pang ibang posts dito na mas deserving mailagay dito kaysa sa mga debates na ito... you are respecting my opinion and I am respecting yours since we both have points that will only apply on a certain situation, we can't have the best of both worlds... let's just wait and see what will happen... salamat po...

Tingin ko lang Kuya Mac, ang dami nating ginawang kalat dito, pwede po ba nating ipa-bura sa mga mods ang lahat ng kalat natin?

[cabalen25]

I'm not quite sure about the stats of Pangasinan. Isn't the province of Pangasinan a predominantly Ilocano-speaking province? How many percent of the population have Pangasinense as their mother tongue? I'm certain it's not like Pampanga where 99% of the people are conversant w/ Pampango/Kapampangan.

[tisoycuba]

Originally Posted by hirolionheart

Target opening daw nung Q-Mall sa Angeles City, Pampanga ay May 2009
From page 17/27 of: http://www.pse.com.ph/html/ListedCom...7Q_Jun2008.pdf

Kung gano kalaki, hindi ko pa rin alam, hehehe

kung sa boom lang ay boom na ang ANGELES CITY,dami na rin tinatayu na condo dyan sa ANGELES... TRY MO LANG BRO MAG-IKUT KA MUNA SA ANGELES..KUNG SA SAN MATEO LANG NAMAN EH BOOM NAMAN ANG ANGELES DYANKahit noon pa na may KANO sa CLARK AIR BASE..YAN ANG TAWAG SA CLARK NOON!

[icarusrising]

RP bags biggest deal in smooth air talks with Malaysia

JUDITH BALEA, abs-cbnNEWS.com | 10/30/2008 8:09 PM

CLARK, Pampanga - In a small room at the Lakeview Mimosa Leisure Estate here, 12 Filipino and eight Malaysian delegates sat down to negotiate crossborder air entitlements. The talks were supposed to run for two days but went so smoothly that they ended in one.

What makes the event a bigger success is that the Philippines was able to clinch the best deal in the series of air negotiations with various countries this year.

Clark International Airport Corp (CIAC) president and chief executive Victor Luciano, who was part of the home panel, said they got an additional 9,000 seats a week or seven flights a day to any airport in Malaysia for the Diosdado Macapagal International Airport (DMIA). The same allocation was given to Malaysian carriers landing on DMIA.

The parties also agreed on 2,300 seat entitlements to the Ninoy Aquino International Airport (NAIA) in Manila from any point in Malaysia except Kuala Lumpur, and 2,000 seats to any point in Malaysia from local airports excluding NAIA and DMIA.

"This is good news for the overseas Filipino workers (OFWs) in Malaysia. We are very happy with the outcome of the talks," Luciano remarked.

Currently, DMIA plays host to budget carrier Air Asia of Malaysia, which flies out of the airport to Kuala Lumpur and Kota Kinabalu. It currently has one flight a day for each of the two Malaysian destinations.

Air Asia is one of the two foreign budget airlines that operate at DMIA, together with Singapore's Tiger Airways, which flies out via Clark to Singapore and Macau.

Talks with Malaysia round up the list of promising accords to date that bring the government closer to its target of making Clark the premier international gateway of the country, next to the already congested Manila airport. The Philippines also earlier signed air agreements with Macau, Thailand, Cambodia, Finland, Hongkong, and Canada.

Only the air talks with Kuwait ended in a deadlock after Kuwaiti negotiators insisted on additional 9 flights to Manila. The Philippine panel did not give in since it wanted to develop the traffic for Clark.

Clark's potential

Why the government keeps promoting Clark as entry and exit point for other countries is simple.

“We cannot anymore accommodate more flights in Manila. It has reached its capacity and we must consider the safety and security of our passengers,” said Doroteo Reyes, Transportation and Communication undersecretary who was also chairman of the Philippine panel during the air talks.

Built in the 1940s, the NAIA, the main gateway to the archipelago, has two intersecting runways which could not accommodate big aircraft simultaneously. Because of this, operations in the Manila airport have been costly for some airline companies whose planes hover around the runway, wasting fuel, as they line up for take-off.

Luciano, in a separate interview, explained that NAIA has also been too crowded, with roughly 12 million international and 11 million domestic passengers flying yearly.

Clark's DMIA, on the other hand, is four times larger than NAIA because it was built for the aviation facilities of Americans before. Clark sport two runways that can even be expanded to four, noted Luciano.

The challenge now lies in "convincing" big-ticket players, like the Philippine Airlines (PAL), to locate in DMIA.

"NAIA is still where you can find the critical mass of businesses. Locating in Clark would also mean airlines have to maintain dual manpower and the big ones, especially those that have high load factors, don't want this," Luciano said.

But nonetheless, he noted, Clark has a lot of potential to attract more carriers as its burgeoning tourism industry spurs more foreign arrivals.

Local budget carrier Cebu Pacific is pioneering in daily international flights starting November 8 from DMIA to Singapore and Hong Kong. It will also mount four flights a week using the Clark-Bangkok and Clark-Macau routes.

Other domestic carriers South East Asian Airlines (Seair), Zest Air (formerly Asian Spirit), and Air Philippines will begin daily international and domestic flights at DMIA before the end of this year.

Healthy competition

That forging more air deals and allowing more players to come in would create tighter competition in the airline industry is no question.

In Clark, the entry of Cebu Pacific, which would fly the same routes as Singapore's Tiger Airways, would certainly spell battle between the two low-cost carriers for passengers. In case Cebu Pacific applies for flights going to Malaysia, it will likewise rival the latter's Air Asia.

But this should not be a cause for worry, said Luciano. After all, he added, "Competition is healthy. The more options there are for consumers, the more they would be encouraged to fly. The pie will become bigger."

"It (competition) will force airlines to improve their services, eliminate any inefficiency. It can also help bring down fares."

The Philippines, for its part, will benefit from having more airlines bringing in tourists.

Many countries in the region believe that tourism can be boosted by "opening their skies" to unlimited flights by foreign airlines. Flag carrier PAL and other local airlines are contesting the possible implementation of the policy at NAIA because they warned it could severely affect their financial health. Thus, the Philippine government is offering open skies, but only on flights coming to Clark.

For now, efforts are focused on accommodating as many flights as the country could, especially for Clark where a lot of tourists now reside and operate businesses.

"Tourism and aviation are really entwined. Aviation brings in investments," Luciano remarked.

From only 7,000 in 2003, passengers at DMIA have grown to about 700,000 this year.

Volume is expected to jump to over a billion by 2009, with not only tourists but also OFWs who hail from the Central and Northern Luzon patronizing the Clark airport.

Clark a full aviation hub

The government is positioning Clark as a full aviation complex, complete with logistics and aircraft maintenance facilities.

It admitted, however, it needs the help of the private sector in achieving this goal.

"The engine for growth will be the private sector. The capital will come from them, not from government funds. The dream for Clark can only be attained through public-private partnerships," he told reporters.

To start off, CIAC already signed agreements for a multi-billion-peso logistics park and a maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) facility in the DMIA.

Kuwait's KGL will establish the logistics park while SIAEC of Singapore, in a joint venture with Cebu Pacific, will put up the MRO center, which will be inaugurated next week.

"Clark will not just be an airport soon," Luciano said.

as of 10/30/2008 11:05 PM

[macabalen]

Originally Posted by barrera_marquez

Ang dami kuya... isa-isahin natin...

Hindi ko pa natatanong sa professor ko (actually hindi lang siya professor, Ph.D. in Linguistics kasi siya) kung taga-saang probinsya siya... anyway, stop na tayo roon, nalalayo tayo sa topic natin...

I was only defending myself. You were calling attention to my “inappropriate” language (erroneously, it would seem), so I had to reason out. You might have brought on me the ire of the Pangasinan people, through no fault of my own, by your statements. Instead of apologizing, you change the topic.

Originally Posted by barrera_marquez

If Kapampangan state can stand on financially on itself... e di mas lalo nga ang CL state... now hindi ako against sa proposal mo... I'm just expressing my opinions... nagkataon na CL state ang gusto ni Pimentel... hindi Kapampangan state...

I would have kept quiet, if you had simply said that both the Kapampangan State and the Central Luzon state have their merits, and let it go at that. Instead, you had to leave a parting shot that the CL state is better ("mas lalo"). So I must explain.

Apparently, you did not catch my line of reasoning (this is what has made our posts so long). First, we agree that both the Kapampangan State and the CL State are financially viable (i.e., they can stand on their own). But then, both would still have limited income. You might compare the Kapampangan State to a small family with limited income, and the Central Luzon state to a large family, also with limited income. Now, tell me, using purely economic criteria, which family is more financially secure, viable and self-sustaining, the smaller family (with a higher per capita income), or the larger family (with a lower per capita income)? Isn't the answer obvious? Except that I would hesitate to compare the CL state to a family, since it speaks different languages (How many families are like that? Not too many, I suppose, since, even with mixed marriages, one language is usually made the common medium from the birth of the children.). They could always choose one of the languages of the members as the lingua franca over others, but that would favor some members of the family, putting them at an advantage, and the rest at a disadvantage. This choosing of favorites, and discrimination of the non-favored ones, does happen in many families, but it is (you’d probably agree) not the ideal situation at all (and many parents who play favorites would often not admit this). If this situation can be avoided by choosing states which are as monolingual as possible, IMHO, it's not worth looking for trouble, by intentionally creating states where multiple languages can be one more source of conflict.

Originally Posted by barrera_marquez

Now ia-admit ko na mali ako roon sa choosing between culture and economy... now, since we Novo Ecijanos do not have a cultural ancestor (we are only based on 4 cultural ancestors, you all know what is that four) yun nga ang kinakatakot ko, mahati ang probinsya namin... if the CL state appears, ok, if the Kapampangan state appears, ok...

Fine, thanks. But if Nueva Ecija is like that, please do not impose your solution on the Kapampangan Region, which does not have that kind of problem. Let it (the Kapampangan State) be. After all, its proponents are not interested in claiming Nueva Ecija, in whole or in part.

Originally Posted by barrera_marquez

Now, also, you are right that intermarriages can pose a threat since the children will speak Filipino to be able to speak to his/her parents... however, we should also let them expose to the parents' mother languages... admit ko biktima ako niyan kasi nga hindi ako marunong mag-Kapampangan...

But then, a CL state would not be the best entity to encourage the non-Tagalog languages, would it, since it would be a Tagalog-majority one.

Originally Posted by barrera_marquez

Hindi naman dapat sabihin the "CL state is dangerous to your language...," nasa state pa rin talaga iyan kung gusto nila... Sure that is true today na mukhang napapabayaan ng mga LGUs natin ang mga cultural issues natin dahil siguro wala pang sapat na pangil ang mga local governments natin to preserve our languages... (ano ba ang ginagawa ng Komisyon sa Wikang Filipino? Gising naman diyan o!), or wag naman sana pero baka nangungurakot lang sila? Pero maybe kapag federal na tayo, baka makagawa na sila ng mga sapat na paraan upang i-salba ang mga dayalekto natin...

That remains to be seen. The burden of proof is on it, since its dominant and official language is also the national language. As opposed to a Kapampangan or Pangasinan State, to whom defense of the mother tongue is second nature.

Originally Posted by barrera_marquez

Pangasinans? Pangasinan lang yung territory nila tapos yung mga adjacent areas nila like Tarlac, Nueva Ecija, Zambales, etc. Now tama ka rin doon sa CL state na pwede nilang i-enforce ang majority rule for the sake of communication at dito ko ibibigay sa iyo ang points... hindi ko rin sure kung may gagawin sila para maisalba ang mga wika nila... pero dapat maglagay sila ng rules for preservation of languages...

I meant to say “Pangasinenses,” but since that would have offended your sensibilities, I have opted to say “Pangasinans” (meaning people of Pangasinan ethnicity) instead. Get it?

Originally Posted by barrera_marquez

for example dito sa SSC, although we allow local dialects here... kailangang isalin ito sa Filipino or English (or kung ano ang dominant language ng sub-forum) kung may humingi... dapat ganun din sa magiging states natin... hindi ko na hihingin ang mga Filipino translation ng mga Kapampangan words na ginamit niyo ni Kuya Nico kasi nauunawaan ko siya...

First, Kapampangan is not a dialect. It is language: like Tagalog, Pangasinan, Ilocano, Cebuano, English, Spanish, Mag-Anchi Ayta, Mag-Indi Ayta, Basque, Mandarin, Aymara, Swahili, German, and so on. Check this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languag...he_Philippines

Second, this is the “Angeles City and Pampanga” sub-forum, so I would think that the dominant language should be Kapampangan, or at least Kapampangan should be one of the dominant languages. Kapampangans have to bow to English or Tagalog or whatever other language in other Philippine sub-fora simply because their language is not the majority there, but in the Angeles and Pampanga sub-forum, their language should be given due respect and recognition. If it cannot be made the sole dominant language, then it should be made one of the dominant languages. Since you bring this up, let me tell you that I was dismayed to see people here carrying apparently Kapampangan handles, but using Tagalog, in a forum dedicated to a Kapampangan-majority area. In fact, I did not address you in Kapampangan only because you apparently could not speak the language. If we have to enforce any language at all, it should be the Amanung Sisuan, and that it’s your Tagalog words which should be translated to Kapampangan instead. Btw, not all of those who speak Kapampangan (or who trace their origins to Angeles City and Pampanga) can speak Tagalog. I know many overseas Kapampangans (or their children) who can still speak Kapampangan (as well as English), but are unable to speak Tagalog, or find difficulty with it.

“kailangang isalin ito sa Filipino or English”? That’s…..Sorry, I might be censored or banned. I beg your pardon? How would you feel if you were in a Manila or Quezon forum, where Tagalog is expected to be spoken, and you were asked to speak in Kapampangan instead? That’s how I felt when you said I should be speaking in Tagalog. You have belittled Kapampangan, and treated it as if it were second class, and so low and unworthy that it cannot be used, except when accompanied by a translation, and in a forum dedicated to a Kapampangan-majority area at that. That, my friend, is discrimination pure and simple. It is what many non-Tagalogs, especially from the South, chafe at and refer to as the arrogance of Tagalogs or of Imperial Manila. Don’t keep saying that you are Kapampangan (you say that you don’t speak the language, anyway): after all, you’ve taken the side opposite of or against that of Kapampangan in this matter. You have just given us a foretaste of how Kapampangan and other non-Tagalog languages would be treated in that Central Luzon State of yours (where, unlike here, Kapampangan is indeed in the minority, and would therefore expect even more humiliating and shameful treatment). I’m not protesting or calling for a protest by concerned Kapampangan members (who care for their language and their dignity) yet, since I’m giving the management the benefit of the doubt here, until they say otherwise.

Incidentally, I didn’t use the term “Filipino,” because “Filipino” is actually a form of Tagalog:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filipino_language

In fact, one Internet discussion group calls “Filipino” a subdialect of the Manila dialect of Tagalog:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DILA/message/18441

Originally Posted by barrera_marquez

Anyway, that's enough na po kuya... marami pang ibang posts dito na mas deserving mailagay dito kaysa sa mga debates na ito... you are respecting my opinion and I am respecting yours since we both have points that will only apply on a certain situation, we can't have the best of both worlds... let's just wait and see what will happen... salamat po...

Tingin ko lang Kuya Mac, ang dami nating ginawang kalat dito, pwede po ba nating ipa-bura sa mga mods ang lahat ng kalat natin?

My language, and my homeland, is a vital and inseparable part of my identity. The posts here are interesting, but few of them, if any, would be (IMHO) more deserving than my language, homeland or identity. If you think that the things you have written are kalat, that’s your opinion, and I respect it. But what I have written here, I have researched, and not plucked from thin air. It was written with the love of my Kapampangan nation and language in mind, in defense of my heritage and identity. To me, it is definitely not kalat. Besides, the thread continued only because I was defending my position from your “attacks”. But as to removing it, let’s leave it to the moderator. Who might also wish to issue a pronouncement on the status of the Kapampangan language, in a sub-forum dedicated to an area where Kapampangans are in the majority.

[macabalen]

Originally Posted by cabalen25

I'm not quite sure about the stats of Pangasinan. Isn't the province of Pangasinan a predominantly Ilocano-speaking province? How many percent of the population have Pangasinense as their mother tongue? I'm certain it's not like Pampanga where 99% of the people are conversant w/ Pampango/Kapampangan.

Here's what the English Wikipedia says:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangasinan

The total population of Pangasinan is 2,434,086 as of 2000, and projected to be 3,039,500 in 2010. (National Statistics Office, 2000 Census). [1] The Pangasinan language is the primary language in Pangasinan. The estimated population of the indigenous speakers of the Pangasinan language in the province of Pangasinan is 1.5 million.

[barrera_marquez]

Kuya mayroon po kasi tayong Federalism forum sa Social Issues e... parang mas bagay po siya roon... opinion lang po...

[cabalen25]

Originally Posted by macabalen

Here's what the English Wikipedia says:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangasinan

The total population of Pangasinan is 2,434,086 as of 2000, and projected to be 3,039,500 in 2010. (National Statistics Office, 2000 Census). [1] The Pangasinan language is the primary language in Pangasinan. The estimated population of the indigenous speakers of the Pangasinan language in the province of Pangasinan is 1.5 million.

So it's NOT safe to say that the province of Pangasinan has predominantly Pangasinense-speaking population since only 50% speak Pangasinense. Am I right? If that's the case, do you think a Pangasinan state would still be feasible?

[macabalen]

Originally Posted by cabalen25

So it's NOT safe to say that the province of Pangasinan has predominantly Pangasinense-speaking population since only 50% speak Pangasinense. Am I right? If that's the case, do you think a Pangasinan state would still be feasible?

That is of course up to them. I can tell you that I know people from Pangasinan who are working for a Pangasinan State, which they think should not be part of Northern Luzon. Pangasinan is, like Kapampangan, one of the eight major languages of the Philippines (Kapampangan is number 7, Pangasinan number 8). As I've mentioned, of the eight biggest groups, only Kapampangan and Pangasinan do not have proposed states where they constitute the majority. Pangasinan is also historically important, and significant in national affairs, and I believe, can support itself, just like the Kapampangan Region. Those things would work in Pangasinan's, favor, but as I said, the decision is theirs to make.

As to the feasibility of the Pangasinan State in the light of a large Ilocano minority (not a majority, though, since Pangasinan-speakers make up about 50%), the people of Pangasinan should, again, be left to decide among themselves. But I think that since this is, after all, the Province of Pangasinan, most residents appear to be willing to defer to the primacy of the Pangasinan language:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Amanun...n/message/3939

"...one of the first acts of Gov. Amado Espino, who took office after winning in the May 14 election, was to set a policy to preserve the Pangasinan language. He immediately made his subalterns in the capitol and the officials of Pangasinan’s municipalities aware of the threat of extinction facing the Pangasinenses’ true language.

So now, unless you are a foreigner, you must speak Pangasinan at the capitol and most of the town halls of the province."

Incidentally, Pangasinan also has a problem with Tagalization:

"And many parents talk to their children in Tagalog — not in Pangasinan."
(op. cit.)

which makes me all the more convinced that Kapampangan cannot survive unless it is given a Kapampangan-majority state (not a Tagalog-majority one like CL), where the Amanung Sisuan does not have to be subordinate or second class to Tagalog (or third class, after Tagalog and English).

[portludlow]

Nice discourse @Macabalen

I admire your sense of pride from being a Capampangan. I always thought Capampangans and Tagalogs are so intertwined with each other both culturally and historically that it will be hard seeing them as separate states. They always are at odds on a lot of things but they almost always move beyond that when matters of utmost importance are at stake.

Kaburi ku sana nung ing kekatamung balen maging metung yang estado. Eku mu siguradu nung agyu tamung talakad sarili na ali maapekto ing kekatamung pamibiebie nung alalu deng kasiping tamung mas dominante keng ekonomya. Enaman siguru malawut akamtan ing pamagpreserba keng kekatamung kultura angang makakyabe tamu keng maragul a estado.

[tisoycuba]

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[tisoycuba]

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[tisoycuba]

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[hirolionheart]

(UPDATE) 5 dead, 51 hurt after bus, AUV collide in NLEX

abs-cbnNEWS.com | 11/01/2008 8:26 PM

Five people were killed in a collision between a bus and an Asian Utility Vehicle (AUV) in Barangay Sta. Ines, Mabalacat town, along the North Luzon Expressway in Pampanga on Saturday.

51 others were injured.

According to Inspector Robert Manaloto of the Mabalacat, Pampanga Police, the driver and passenger of the AUV died in the collision that occurred past 11 a.m.

Investigators said the bus, part of the Fermin Express company's fleet, smashed into the AUV after it overtook the vehicle ahead of it. The bus was headed for San Carlos, Pangasinan while the AUV was headed toward Manila.

Based on the extent of the damage to both vehicles, investigators say the bus and the AUV were travelling more than 100 kph.

The driver of the AUV has been identified as a priest, Father Domingo Moraleda. Authorities asked that the identity of the female passenger be witheld since her family has yet to be contacted.

Three female bus passengers died; only one has been identified. The remains of bus passenger Aurelia Morteria are now in the morgue of the San Rafael Hospital in Mabalacat.

The remains of the two other unidentified female fatalities are in the E.D. Punzalan Funeral Home in San Fernando, Pampanga.

Survivors

Fifty-one bus passengers hurt in the collision were brought to three different hospitals.

Twenty-two victims are being treated in the San Rafael Hospital. They include: Rizaldy Bondoc; Rizzamae Bondoc; Mildred Castro; Armando Castro; Renesto Gubat; Teresita Nadera; Jonathan Garcia; Alvin Lintin; Mary Lintin; Joy Lintin; Melanie Mortera; Eden Tapio; Remedios Taquiqui; Reynaldo Taquiqui; Andres Taquiqui; Jocelyn Palisoc; Larry Palisoc; Rogelio Palisoc; Meridez Giorpio; Gina Macasaid; Johnny Padual; and Resty Castro.

The twenty-eight victims being treated at the Mabalacat District Hospital are: Danilo Muñoz; Wilson Tansingco; Ulysses Nido; Jomar Lagunsin; Geraldo Cabuli; Benjamin delos Santos; Jun Mumda; Hororio Gutierrez; Carolina Carpio; Roda Esteban; Jessa Poldo; Gloria Penulvar; Marvin Melicdem; Josephine Madrid; Geraldine Pons; Genesis Madrid; Diana Madrid; Demi Madrid; Sarah Pons; Mariel Nelgas; Yolita Riquintil; Rems Torralba; Elidio Macasaid; Albert Ballesteros; Joseph dela Cruz; Rosalie dela Cruz; Maricris Bautista; and Arnel Agcaoili.

One survivor, Ricardo Garcia, is being treated at the Angeles University Foundation Hospital.

The driver of the Fermin Express bus, identified by police as Ricardo Santos, was also injured. Police will file charges of " reckless imprudence resulting in homicide and multiple physical injuries" against Santos.

With reports from Apples Jalandoni and Ina Reformina.
as of 11/02/2008 2:09 AM

[Culiat]

Just in case people have forgotten we have a thread under the heritage subforums dedicated to the Kapampangan Language peace out!

[cabalen25]

Originally Posted by macabalen

That is of course up to them. I can tell you that I know people from Pangasinan who are working for a Pangasinan State, which they think should not be part of Northern Luzon. Pangasinan is, like Kapampangan, one of the eight major languages of the Philippines (Kapampangan is number 7, Pangasinan number 8).

If I'm not mistaken, they have already divided Bicolano language into Northern Bicol and Southern Bicol languages, making Kapampangan/Pampango the 6th biggest linguistic group in the Philippines, ahead of Southern Bicol (7th), followed by Pangasinan (8th) and Northern Bicol (9th). I read an article somewhere but I forgot what exactly the site was.

[cabalen25]

... no doubt, Kapampangans will outnumber the Waray group for being the 5th biggest ethnolinguistic group in the near future.