New Baltimore Arena?! BREAKING NEWS

[21230]

Originally Posted by Tricia_Lvs_Baltimore

I will submit my vote and say that I think the arena should go next to M&T Bank stadium. It will combine all three sports facilities to create one big sports complex.

I'm going to have to disagree. I think the best thing for the city is having the arena convenient to public transportation and, more importantly, within a neighborhood that it could add a lot of business to.

Arena business adds a large amount of people to a neighborhood willing to spend money. Putting it around Westport or Port Covington would do little to motivate people to stay within the city. Even south of M&T is really not surrounded by anything ripe for redevelopment unless another Harbor East is guaranteed.

I'm thinking of the Fleet Center, Madison Square Garden and the MCI/Verizon Center. Regularly adding 15k+ people to a neighborhood does wonders. Each of those arenas are surrounded by tons of restaurants and bars. I mean, look that neighborhood in DC now. In contrast, the sports complex in Philadelphia does little to nothing for the city except provide convenient highway access for sports fans.

Since the West Side and Station North neighborhoods are currently under revitilization, I think those sites would be ideal. I especially like the Penn Station location. Then, we might finally be able to connect Charles Village to Mount Vernon.

Thoughts?

[Interestedreader]

Originally Posted by 21230

I'm going to have to disagree. I think the best thing for the city is having the arena convenient to public transportation and, more importantly, within a neighborhood that it could add a lot of business to.

Arena business adds a large amount of people to a neighborhood willing to spend money. Putting it around Westport or Port Covington would do little to motivate people to stay within the city. Even south of M&T is really not surrounded by anything ripe for redevelopment unless another Harbor East is guaranteed.

I'm thinking of the Fleet Center, Madison Square Garden and the MCI/Verizon Center. Regularly adding 15k+ people to a neighborhood does wonders. Each of those arenas are surrounded by tons of restaurants and bars. I mean, look that neighborhood in DC now. In contrast, the sports complex in Philadelphia does little to nothing for the city except provide convenient highway access for sports fans.

Since the West Side and Station North neighborhoods are currently under revitilization, I think those sites would be ideal. I especially like the Penn Station location. Then, we might finally be able to connect Charles Village to Mount Vernon.

Thoughts?

Respectfully disagree. Most of those areas are landlocked. The area immediately south of M&T (Gateway South/Carroll Camden) allows for mixed-use density and the arena. You would essentially create another destination location less than a mile from the convention center. The areas you referenced are going to be revitalized with or without an arena. Use the arena to jumpstart life into an underdeveloped and underperforming area of downtown.

[Hood]

I couldn't agree more about the arena. Look at Meadowlands complex as the same situation as philly. Its isolated and serves nothing except for the sports fan. I don't mind that if our area is funded by private dollars, but if its public dollars - that money needs to leverage private investemtn in the neighborhoods. I am going to say this until I am blue in the face, but the superblock site was the place to put is. Condemn the land like BDC already has and then use that footprint to put the areana. That way is close to the location of the existing one, a place where I think we all agree is perfectly sited and you can keep the old one up and running while the new one gets built. Then the old one can get torn down and redevloped. What a glorious footprint for the City to sell.

[PeterSmith]

Originally Posted by 21230

I'm going to have to disagree. I think the best thing for the city is having the arena convenient to public transportation and, more importantly, within a neighborhood that it could add a lot of business to.

Arena business adds a large amount of people to a neighborhood willing to spend money. Putting it around Westport or Port Covington would do little to motivate people to stay within the city. Even south of M&T is really not surrounded by anything ripe for redevelopment unless another Harbor East is guaranteed.

I'm thinking of the Fleet Center, Madison Square Garden and the MCI/Verizon Center. Regularly adding 15k+ people to a neighborhood does wonders. Each of those arenas are surrounded by tons of restaurants and bars. I mean, look that neighborhood in DC now. In contrast, the sports complex in Philadelphia does little to nothing for the city except provide convenient highway access for sports fans.

Since the West Side and Station North neighborhoods are currently under revitilization, I think those sites would be ideal. I especially like the Penn Station location. Then, we might finally be able to connect Charles Village to Mount Vernon.

Thoughts?

I think we pretty much summed it up as I would have.

I would liken putting the arena next to M&T and Camden Yards with the urban planning strategies that followed the Chicago World's Fair in 1933. The idea of keeping similar things together in neat little groups and dividing them from other, different groups hasn't proved to be as successful as it looked on the drawing board. Mixed-use is the key, and I think an arena has a lot to offer in that context. An arena caters to a more diverse population than a stadium - large crowds and small crowds, sports fans and concert goers, children and adults, etc. Plus, they're smaller and can be integrated, with some skillful planning, into the urban fabric. Baltimore could be served well to take a cue or two from DC, and the arena planning is one example. The Verizon Center is fantastically placed. You might not even know it's an arena if you weren't familiar with the city (I'm not saying that is what we should shoot for, but it does show how perfectly it fits with the neighborhood.).

I wouldn't be against placing it in any of the proposed locations. I think it would do wonders for the development of Westport, Canton, Gateway South and Port Covington. But I would shy away from including it next to the stadiums if the goal is going to be a "sports complex Mecca," and nothing else.

That said, I agree with you, 21230, that the Penn Station lot is a very attractive location. Imagining the potential transformation that the arena would bring to that neighborhood makes it hard to not go with that bid, in my opinion. I think of all the locations, the impact the Verizon Center had on DC's Chinatown could be emulated best in Station North. Nevertheless, we might not want that. After all, the Verizon Center did force most of the Chinese out of Chinatown. Our new arena might force all the artists out of Station North, as well. Still, the new arena brought together with the growth of UB and MICA, and situated next to Penn Station is an absolute urban dream

[TheGlobalizer]

I love the Port Covington idea. The proposed redevelopment of that area would be fantastic, but a bit large for just residential with some commercial. An idea that resembles the Nats new stadium and the area around it would be an AMAZING way to re-up that portion of the peninsula.

[Gsol]

Where is the lot near Penn Station? I can't envision a parking lot that can accommodate the arena. Even so its a bit removed from rail transit lines. The Lexington Market and the present site seem the most practical, even if events have to be shifted for two-years. The benefits out weigh inconvenience. I am glad to see that an 18k+ venue is being considered. There is always a likelihood that a professional team could move in.

I heard that Seattle might be loosing the Supersonics since the city is refusing to build a newer arena. The franchise is seriously considering Oklahoma City. If Okla can get a team, how can Balt. ever be out of the running?

BTW Okla City metro area population is 1.095 mil, the 47th largest metro area. Balt. is 2.553 mil, the 19th largest.

[Maudibjr]

The penn station lot is smaller than the current arena pad, which we have already discussed may be to small. Unless there going to demolish the Charles theatre.

I like the lexington market location but where will the market go? A lot of revenue is generated there.

[jamie_hunt]

Originally Posted by 21230

I'm going to have to disagree. I think the best thing for the city is having the arena convenient to public transportation and, more importantly, within a neighborhood that it could add a lot of business to.

Arena business adds a large amount of people to a neighborhood willing to spend money. Putting it around Westport or Port Covington would do little to motivate people to stay within the city. Even south of M&T is really not surrounded by anything ripe for redevelopment unless another Harbor East is guaranteed.

I'm thinking of the Fleet Center, Madison Square Garden and the MCI/Verizon Center. Regularly adding 15k+ people to a neighborhood does wonders. Each of those arenas are surrounded by tons of restaurants and bars. I mean, look that neighborhood in DC now. In contrast, the sports complex in Philadelphia does little to nothing for the city except provide convenient highway access for sports fans.

Since the West Side and Station North neighborhoods are currently under revitilization, I think those sites would be ideal. I especially like the Penn Station location. Then, we might finally be able to connect Charles Village to Mount Vernon.

Thoughts?

Best, most detailed discussion thread in a long time. Love it.

Not sure the Fleet Center in Boston (nee Boston Garden; now, TD Banknorth Garden) is the best example of the value of an arena to adjacent neighborhoods. Take the kids to Celtics and Bruins games there and the 'hood (the historic "Bullfinch Triangle") is as scuzzy as I recall it being when I was in college 20 years ago (naturally, the kids love it for that). Only difference is the elevated tracks and the old Boston Garden itself are gone. It's telling that in all the new construction that's happened in Boston during that time, the footprint of the now-demolished old Garden is still an empty lot.

At any rate, if the new arena were built on land/landfill south of Stockholm Street as part of the Gateway project, it would be an easy walk to light rail and Federal Hill, and an anchor for the redevelopment of the Middle Branch.

[UCTerp]

Originally Posted by Maudibjr

I like the lexington market location but where will the market go? A lot of revenue is generated there.

I think the Sun article said the arena would go across the street from Lexington Market where a parking lot currently exists. I would imagine the vendors at Lexington Market would love that idea, can you imagine their sales before events?

[PeterSmith]

As I mentioned earlier in another thread, a study was conducted on the possibility of rerouting or extending the light rail line to travel through Gateway South along Warner St. on its way to Westport. I imagine that if Gateway South is selected, this plan would come to fruition.

You can find renderings of the rerouting at www.designcollective.com

I am glad to see that transit appears to be a key issue with the MSA is developing this arena. It's amazing how they can be so diligent in their planning in this aspect, and so short-sighted in their planning with regards to how many seats the arena will have.

[BaltoSteve]

I prefer the current site for many reasons...transit in particular.It is within walking distance of Metro,Light Rail, Multiple buses, and the hopefully future RedLine.

[StevenW]

I'm just excited that Baltimore is finally doing something about building a new arena.

[Densify]

Originally Posted by UCTerp

I think the Sun article said the arena would go across the street from Lexington Market where a parking lot currently exists. I would imagine the vendors at Lexington Market would love that idea, can you imagine their sales before events?

Yeah, I believe they are talking about the lot to the west of the Market. I believe it is a garage.

[Silver Springer]

Some may be hinting it but I haven't read anybody saying directly that the best location would be the one that would have the biggest multiplier effect on the most depressed part of city (and that doesn't mean where their is a minimal number of people).

While the current site may seems nice because of all the amenities around it, would it really spur spin off development on a magnitude like the other locations? I'm gonna have to say no. It looks pretty developed around the current site with some pretty tall buildings that no one is going to knock down anytime soon even with a new arena.

I would say the best bets are Lexington Market (if they don't take the market away which is key other wise it doesn't seem worth it.), Penn Station or Eutaw. These areas are close enough to be in reach of the hussle and bustle of downtown but also close to the western half of the city to hopefully create a bridge that will spur development westward.

This stadium needs to be pushed as far west as possible to revitalize the west side from that portion of downtown and beyond.

The western half of the city just feels so neglected by private investment.

I hopew they play their cards to the maximum.

[MasonsInquiries]

i'll pick the current site. seems like a wonderful spot for the metro, and the CBD in general.

[30 Floors Up]

Originally Posted by 30 Floors Up

Dan Rodricks, from the Sun, wrote a column yesterday supporting putting the New Arena on the interstate instead of downtown. I mostly agree with what he writes, but not on this issue.

Here is the column:
A bright idea?
A Harford County guy named Eric - no last name given (out of modesty, I assume) - cried "Eureka" the other day, and not because his vacuum cleaner came back from the shop, but because a bright, energy-efficient light bulb when off in his head.

"I think this is the best idea I've ever had," Eric asserted by e-mail. "What do you think about the 'BP Solar Center' [for a new arena in Baltimore], nestled conveniently off of I-95, wherever Ed Hale wants to put it? Let BP Solar cover the entire roof in solar panels, thus collecting, storing, and supplying a massive amount of energy. Let various think tanks and universities spend some grant money to devise new ways of making the building energy efficient. Make it a science project of the highest order.

"In turn, BP Solar gets free naming rights to the venue for some extraordinary number of years. Everybody wins!"

Thanks for sharing, Eric. I don't even know you, but I can just tell that's the best idea you ever had.

Baltimore needs a new arena. It should be located away from downtown, in southeast Baltimore by the interstate, just as First Mariner Bank Prez Hale has suggested. Making it a green building is an even cooler idea. (Plus, any place that is going to have an ice rink - because we will have a professional hockey team here again - must conserve energy costs.)

This concludes the great-ideas portion of today's column.


I e-mailed him this
Dan,

In your column about the arena today you seem to have a major disconnect when it comes to logic.

Now I ask you, why bother to make a new Arena energy efficient when you want to site it on an interstate highway and force everyone who wants to attend an event to arrive by car? If the arena's life is 40 years, that is a hell of a lot of gas and oil burned up. Doesn't that seem "penny wise and pound foolish" to you? When it comes to energy use, it sure does to me.

Seems to me that there would be a lot more energy saved if the Arena was in downtown Baltimore and people could arrive by subway, light rail, bus, and car. I like the energy efficient area idea. I don't like your location because it does nothing but squander energy. Why not get the most energy savings by constructing an energy efficient area in Downtown Baltimore?

And there are other benefits to a downtown site. Seems to me that the City of Baltimore would get a lot more money for it's investment if people could arrive early, or leave late, and enjoy the restaurants and shops downtown. In short, they could make a day out of an event that may last but a few hours. That is a much better alternative than an arena surrounded by a sea of parking on an interstate where everyone is trying to arrive and leave at the same time.

The "arena on an interstate" idea has been tried and it failed miserably in Maryland. It was called the USAir Arena and was recently demolished when a new Arena was constructed in Downtown Washington. BTW, that new arena was responsible for the rebirth of a whole section of Downtown Washington. Why shouldn't the same thing happen here?

Now if Mr.Hale wants to foot the entire bill for a new arena, that is a different story. But as long as the City of Baltimore and the State of Maryland are going to contribute to the cost, we should try and get the most for our money as tax payers. Small things, like the site of an arena, are what saving the bay is all about. Mass transit vs. cars!


He replied:
Who says everyone has to arrive by car?
If you're so smart then where do you build an arena on a public transit line?


Dan Rodricks
The Baltimore Sun
501 N. Calvert St. Baltimore, Maryland USA 21078
1-800-829-8000 ext 6166
410-979-2061
RANDOM RODRICKS BLOG: http://blogs.baltimoresun.com/news_local_rodricks/


I replied:
If an arena is not on public transit, how else will they arrive? WALK?

Here are just a few sites that will work:

1. State Center - It is about to be completely redone. The site is served by both subway and light rail and has tons of vacant land that is now used as parking. Also, it is right on MLK Blvd which leads to I-95, and I-83 is also close by.

2. Lexington Market - 2 large square blocks of downtown Baltimore that is not being used to it's fullest advantage. The Market is dated and struggling. Demolish it and build a new Lexington Market on the 1st floor, and an arena above it - like Madison Square Garden in NY is over Penn Station. That site is served by all forms of public transit. It would also do wonders for Lexington Market's business insuring that it will be around for many more years. Also, they have a huge parking garage already built that holds thousands of cars. The garage sits mostly empty at night.

3. There are blocks of land on North Howard that are abandoned. That area is served by Subway, Light Rail, and tons of buses. An arena would do wonders for the surrounding area just like MCI Center did for it's area in Washington. In fact, the areas are very similar.

4. And then there is the area East of I-83 and south of the Jail. It is easily walkable from the Shot Tower Subway and the Penn Station Light Rail which could be extended to it at a small cost.

Those are just a few sites that would work and be better than an arena on an interstate.

I did a little calculation based on very conservative numbers.

Assume the arena is in use 100 days a year.
Assume each event generates 5,000 cars
Assume each car uses 1 gallon of gas round trip
Assume the arena's life is 30 years.

On an interstate, 100 % arrive by car. That equates to 15,000,000 gallons of gas burned up over the life of the building.

If just 50% arrive by mass transit at a Downtown site, the amount of gas used is cut by half. That is a lot less global warming and polution in the bay area, IMHO.

Just so you know, I don;t just criticize without thinking about my argument first.

Regards


He sarcastically (I think?) replied:
Oh, those are all prime locations! Yeah!
I particularly like the idea of tearing down historic Lex Market.
Great stuff. Thanks


Dan Rodricks
The Baltimore Sun
501 N. Calvert St. Baltimore, Maryland USA 21078
1-800-829-8000 ext 6166
410-979-2061
RANDOM RODRICKS BLOG: http://blogs.baltimoresun.com/news_local_rodricks/


And lastly, I replied:
A 1950's modern building past its prime isn't historic.

Now I may be wrong on this issue, but at least I present a rational argument. He just makes a statement. Period. When someone questions it, he doesn't back it up with any logic at all IMHO.

BUT NOW -
Arena tests city's will to go big league
Dan Rodricks
November 15, 2007
The decision to build a new arena - where it should be, how big it should be, and what it becomes known for - represents a choice about the city's future: Is Baltimore going to remain a midlevel city with midlevel ambitions and feeble self-esteem, or will it become bigger, bolder and totally major-league?

This whole business of the new arena is a symbolic test of the desire of Baltimoreans to snap out of 40 years of mostly small-think with an aggressive push to a robust urban future that probably none of us can imagine right now.

I'm not just talkin' sports. I'm talking about that certain something - an X factor - that separates the great places from the just-OK places. I've said this before: Baltimore is probably the greatest half-city in America. Becoming the greatest city in America is going to take a lot more work.

We all know the usual litany of chores: Break the cycle of poverty and drug addiction, stop the killing, improve the public schools, encourage more investment to spur job growth, redevelop long stretches of the city that were abandoned over five decades of flight and population loss.

And build a new arena.

I'm fascinated with this subject because it represents so many aspects of Baltimore's municipal culture, history and quirky personality.

When I arrived here, just 15 years after the Civic Center's opening, all I heard about the place was how poorly it had been designed, that it didn't have enough seats, that it had a stage on one end (where the Beatles performed in 1964), that it wasn't good enough to keep the NBA Bullets here, and that it was in a foreboding part of town that no one wanted to visit.

But Baltimoreans went there anyway - to concerts, hockey games, circus and ice shows, religious revivals, professional wrestling matches, graduations, indoor soccer matches and dare-to-be-great seminars. I've been there when the place was packed; I've been there when the house was pathetic.

Thirty years after the arena opened, we built a new baseball stadium just a few blocks away, and Baltimore became the talk of the sports nation for it. We added a complementary football stadium a few years later, and the team that played there won a Super Bowl.

The sports complex took a big bite out of our inferiority complex. For all the arguing we did about the expenditure at Camden Yards, there would be no major league baseball and no NFL here without it.

But the arena remained - like an old station wagon that ran just well enough that we couldn't justify dumping it for something more attractive.

Three decades of robust sports expansion took place across the nation, and you hardly heard a whisper about Baltimore getting in on the action. The talk was stubbornly defeatist: We don't have enough corporate money to support a new arena. No one wants to go downtown. We'll never - ever - again have an NBA or NHL, or even AHL, team.

Just a few months ago, a report came out saying Baltimore should build a modest arena, just big enough for minor-league sports, because there's no need - and no hope - for the 18,000 to 20,000 seats that an NBA or NHL franchise would require.

I agreed, right here in this space, because I'd grown sick of this long civic conversation and I wanted to see something happen. Build a new arena in Haleville (First Mariner Bank CEO Ed Hale's stretch of Southeast Baltimore), I said, because it's conveniently located near the interstate. Let's get a minor-league hockey team, an arena football franchise, and feel thankful.

But not so fast ... and hold all tickets, my fellow Patapscovians. Suddenly other developers, besides Hale, have proposed an arena in other parts of town - each with its own exciting promise - and some say that it would be shortsighted to close the door to major sports franchises moving here.

What do you know? Big-think where we didn't expect it!

I like how it sounds and believe it's the correct approach. City leaders need to present the arena project as grand symbolism about the future.

The population of Baltimore is going to continue to grow, and there will be significant population bursts in the metropolitan area over the next 20 years. The waterfront remains a major attraction to developers and businesses. The cost of energy is going to force a profound change in lifestyle, and people are going to want to live closer to where they work and play. Investment and new confidence in city life will continue to grow, and social conditions will start to improve.

Now I'm thinking we should build a new arena in downtown Baltimore - where the present one stands - and figure out some way of getting by (without losing the Blast) during construction.

We should build the arena to major league dimensions. It should be the site of college basketball playoffs, major concerts and conventions. We should make Baltimore's new arena a state-of-the-art "green" building - get BP Solar to design the power system and take the naming rights - and it should be a massive, glowing presence in downtown Baltimore. It should be an architecturally stunning place that people from all over the world will want to see in a Baltimore that is bigger and bolder, and totally major league.

dan.rodricks@baltsun.com

[Tricia_Lvs_Baltimore]

Great way of standing your ground and speaking up for what you truly believe, 30Floors!! Glad to see his thinking has done a total 360. Sounds like you hit a solo homerun in the bottom of the ninth to pull it out!

Final score:

30FloorsUp: 1
Dan Rodricks: 0

[jamie_hunt]

Originally Posted by Silver Springer

... While the current site may seem nice because of all the amenities around it, would it really spur spin off development on a magnitude like the other locations? I'm gonna have to say no. ...

I'm very much in favor of a new arena, but will argue (until presented w/ data contra) that they don't have much of a spin-off effect. A few nearby restaurants and bars may benefit, but that's about it. Some argue that the Verizon Center spurred the redevelopment of Chinatown in DC, but, with the way real estate's been booming in the nation's capital, that would've happened anyway. Meanwhile, as I noted earlier, the TD Banknorth Garden (which sits atop a railroad station and subway line) hasn't spurred any development in the adjacent, historic Bullfinch Triangle. Other than a few bars and restaurants.

[TheGlobalizer]

Originally Posted by UCTerp

I think the Sun article said the arena would go across the street from Lexington Market where a parking lot currently exists. I would imagine the vendors at Lexington Market would love that idea, can you imagine their sales before events?

Maybe it's just me, but I get the feeling that the Market would make the Arena kinda ghetto, rather than the Arena making the Market area nicer.

I'd love to see the area get spruced up (I used to love going there when I was younger), but I'm not sure this is the best way to do it.

[TheGlobalizer]

Dan Rodricks is a complete f**king douchebag. I don't think there's a stupider person in Baltimore who earns a regular paycheck.