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Old July 6th, 2011, 11:12 AM   #61
Simon91
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This can't be ******* happening. Not yet. This railway will be a major target right from the groundbreaking to operations. I wish Iraq all the best but I doubt it will actually work out so soon..
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Old July 8th, 2011, 06:19 AM   #62
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High speed rail in Iraq, built by Alstom. Formidable!

However, I don't think the situation in Iraq is stable enough just yet... and I fear that the high speed line will become a major target for terrorists. It's impossible to constantly secure 450 km of railway track, after all.
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Old July 8th, 2011, 05:32 PM   #63
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High speed rail in Iraq, built by Alstom. Formidable!

However, I don't think the situation in Iraq is stable enough just yet... and I fear that the high speed line will become a major target for terrorists. It's impossible to constantly secure 450 km of railway track, after all.
A high speed railway is not an attractive target for terrorists. It's actually not that easy to cause the kind of death and mayhem terrorists aim for targetting a TGV. the kind of bomb that causes massive casualties when exploded on a busy market will only scatch the paint on a TGV...
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Old July 8th, 2011, 05:47 PM   #64
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A high speed railway is not an attractive target for terrorists. It's actually not that easy to cause the kind of death and mayhem terrorists aim for targetting a TGV. the kind of bomb that causes massive casualties when exploded on a busy market will only scatch the paint on a TGV...
Well if they are smart enough to develop a shaped charge to damage the boogies at high curves then it might be able to derail the train but it probably be more easier to target the rails then the train itself.
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Old July 8th, 2011, 07:18 PM   #65
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And don't forget the far higher than elsewhere risk of them planting a bomb aboard..
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Old July 22nd, 2011, 08:26 PM   #66
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All they need for that is airport style security at the train station. Remember there are many flights a day to Baghdad and they are rarely targeted anymore.
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Old July 23rd, 2011, 01:41 PM   #67
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Let's think about names... Maybe BombBeltExpress could work.
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Old July 24th, 2011, 05:37 AM   #68
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All they need for that is airport style security at the train station. Remember there are many flights a day to Baghdad and they are rarely targeted anymore.
But unlike planes, it travels on the surface. Very easy to set up bombs along the tracks or even fire an automatic across the windows. Planes are only susceptible to SAMs until about 10,000 feet if I'm correct.

Perhaps my information are outdated, but Iraq is still simply to unstable to safely build and operate such a major infrastructural project. But its good they plan ahead.
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Old July 24th, 2011, 05:50 AM   #69
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Let's think about names... Maybe BombBeltExpress could work.
Whats with the racism? Wasn't USA the country that bombed Iraq over "WMDS"?
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Old July 31st, 2012, 11:39 AM   #70
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Luckly for them there are lots of people willing to exchange oil for money at high prices.
I think many of you overlook one thing: the French TGV solutation is (apart from the signalling and security systems) surprisingly low-tech. The railway lines are ballasted on gravel and stones like in the days of our grandparents, the beams are conventional and (until now) the trains have conventional power cars. In other words, none of the "modern gimmicks" that the Germans and the Japanese have loaded their HS programmes with.

Which being so: if they resist the temptation to bring in foreign contractors (NO Baechtel and KRB this time, please ), a new railway line can be done by local construction firms at a fraction of what it would cost in Europe.
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Old July 31st, 2012, 04:41 PM   #71
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The power cars are not conventional - as a third of them is in the next passenger car. The locomotion (ie required power) was not the issue with high speed rail - it was keeping the weight down to make it economic, and keeping it safe - thats where their TVM signalling system was quite revolutionary. Its not that the French TGV system is low-tech, its just that it wasn't a paradigm shift in many areas (apart from signalling), just an evolution.
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Old July 31st, 2012, 06:17 PM   #72
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I think many of you overlook one thing: the French TGV solutation is (apart from the signalling and security systems) surprisingly low-tech.
What salutation is associated with TGV? Is it bonjour?
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Old July 31st, 2012, 08:14 PM   #73
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The major constraints for speed hadn't been trains for a long cars. Given the correct track geometry, older trains could attain easily 200 or even higher speed without risk of derailment. Actually, I think the speed needed to derail a train on a non-superelevated track in a curve with radius 3500m is something above 750 km/h.

Major hurdles were instead signaling and weight (not much for safety as for wear and tear and energy consumption)
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Old August 2nd, 2012, 12:14 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
I think many of you overlook one thing: the French TGV solutation is (apart from the signalling and security systems) surprisingly low-tech. The railway lines are ballasted on gravel and stones like in the days of our grandparents, the beams are conventional and (until now) the trains have conventional power cars. In other words, none of the "modern gimmicks" that the Germans and the Japanese have loaded their HS programmes with.
Please do not compare apples and oranges. The current solution proposed for
high-speed rail by France is the AGV. It certainly contains an equivalent level
of sophistication to what german and japanese firms are proposing. More
classical TGV sets still produced are all double-deckers, for which noone has
proposed a distributed motorization architecture so far.

As for the track, this is just a question of choice - ballasted or concrete slab
tracks habe both their pro's and con's, and going for one or the other is
not a question of technical capability.
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Old August 2nd, 2012, 11:22 AM   #75
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I'm not comparing oranges and apples. I'm simply saying that a limited-cost HS solution is possible in a relatively poorer country if it relies on capabilities that are locally available - at local prices. I continue to hold that the French - relatively low-tech - LGV model would travel more easily than certain other HS concepts.

As for AGV, well, that remains to be seen. (Or do you know something that I don't?) The AGV was developed by Alstom, acting on its own, and until now SNCF (the French state railways) have been decidedly lukewarm toward this train. The CEO of SNCF keeps talking about double-deckers and I have the impression that he's only willing to contemplate AGV-based technology if it comes in a re-engineered "duplex" version.

Last edited by hans280; August 2nd, 2012 at 03:46 PM.
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Old August 2nd, 2012, 11:00 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
I'm not comparing oranges and apples. I'm simply saying that a limited-cost HS solution is possible in a relatively poorer country if it relies on capabilities that are locally available - at local prices. I continue to hold that the French - relatively low-tech - LGV model would travel more easily than certain other HS concepts.

As for AGV, well, that remains to be seen. (Or do you know something that I don't?) The AGV was developed by Alstom, acting on its own, and until now SNCF (the French state railways) have been decidedly lukewarm toward this train. The CEO of SNCF keeps talking about double-deckers and I have the impression that he's only willing to contemplate AGV-based technology if it comes in a re-engineered "duplex" version.
SNCF does not plan to buy AGV. So far, the only customer for that train is
in Italy. One must indeed admit that Alstom is not very successful on the
export market, compared to its competitors. Tramways, locos, and TGV sets
sell essentially in France... And yes, the french TGV network has high traffic
volumes, so SNCF is not interested in anything else than double deckers. On
that point you are entirely right. But if Alstom was approached by a potential
foreign customer for TGV equipment, the AGV would probably be at the heart
of their proposal. And that piece of rolling stock is in no way less sophisticated
than a Velaro.

Regarding track, I do not believe that ballasted is simpler. To build, maybe.
But remember that in those countries, one big problem is the ballast pollution
by sand. So even if more complicated ot costly, ballastless might be a better
option... What has been the choice in Saudi Arabia ?
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Old August 3rd, 2012, 01:15 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD
But if Alstom was approached by a potential foreign customer for TGV equipment, the AGV would probably be at the heart of their proposal. And that piece of rolling stock is in no way less sophisticated than a Velaro.
Perhaps, but the rolling stock they're selling to the (heavily French-suppoted) HS project in Morocco is actually the TGV-Duplex. Their problem with AGV, I think, is that they developed it without cooperating with a launch client and, in the absense of constant feedback from a railway operator, produced something that may have been better than what was on the market at that time - but not up to the standards of the competitors' evolving creations. The new Velaro won the recent Eurostar bidding contest hands-down (although the operating company is majority French owned!!) because the train performs better than AGV on almost any of the relevant performance parameters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD
Regarding track, I do not believe that ballasted is simpler. To build, maybe. But remember that in those countries, one big problem is the ballast pollution by sand. So even if more complicated ot costly, ballastless might be a better option... What has been the choice in Saudi Arabia ?
Point taken. Sand storms are a constant peril in Mesopotamia. Though your point about Saudi Arabia is, I think, misguided. The landscape between Mecca and Medineh is, as far as I know, stone desert and not at all sandy.
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Old August 3rd, 2012, 02:47 PM   #78
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because the train performs better than AGV on almost any of the relevant performance parameters.
Can you give more info on that?
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Old August 3rd, 2012, 04:42 PM   #79
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Can you give more info on that?
Well, I don't know what technological specifications went into that dossier. However, soon after the news (that a company 55% owned by SNCF had de-selected a French national champion) the CEO of Eurostar N. Petrovic defended himself by saying publicly that "on each of the individual selection criteria Siemens was ahead". http://www.lepoint.fr/economie/euros...1246285_28.php.

According to later leaks, the scoring system of Eurostar's purchasing department gave the new Velaro 19.5 out of 20 points, and the AGV only 12. But that leak also did not specify what were the criteria. I speculate that one of the factors might have been that the Velaro takes more passengers, because the articulation that Alstom is so proud of (which stiffens the train and makes it safer in the case of derailment) is said to limit the passanger capacity relative to other train types. Perhaps some other poster knows more?
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Old August 4th, 2012, 09:44 PM   #80
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According to later leaks, the scoring system of Eurostar's purchasing department gave the new Velaro 19.5 out of 20 points, and the AGV only 12.
Why is it then, that ICE sets constantly have problems on the Paris Est-
Strasburg-Germany lines, and regularly need to be replaced 'on the spot'
by french TGV sets ?

I think that the choice for Velaro rather than AGV is due to the fact that they
preferred to chose a proven design rather than a new set that nobody else
was using yet. I can understand they wanted to avoid all the debugging.
Or perhaps they wanted to introduce some competition between the two
producers. In my professional domain (computers) this is something we do
constantly. Never put all your eggs in the same basket, do not put yourself
in a position where a supplier might threaten you, things like that...
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