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Old June 1st, 2009, 04:32 PM   #421
JoKo65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antovador View Post
Because UIC gauge is universal and easy for interoperability in Europe
That's the western and central european point of view, in the eastern european and central asian point of view it looks different.
All countries around Russia, but China and Poland in the case of Kaliningrad, use 1520 gauge. So it would make no sense for Russia to change the gauge.


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Originally Posted by antovador View Post
that's why countries like Spain build HSR in UIC gauge.
[…]
Spain builds HSR in standard gauge, because in the 80ies, when this decisision was made, it hadn't been as simple as today to change gauge at the borders. The spanish decision looks like an anachronism from today's point of view. It would be much cheaper to use Talgo 250 trains between Paris and Madrid for example, than to build 1435 stretches in Spain.
I wonder if Spain will really rebuild the whole network, especially if EU incentives won't go to Spain and Portugal but to central Europe in the future. I'm afraid that Spain will be an "island-system": a 1670 network with a 1435 island within itself, because regauging the whole network will be too expensive.
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Old June 1st, 2009, 04:44 PM   #422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoKo65 View Post
So it would make no sense for Russia to change the gauge.
It would have sense, but it is simply too complicated to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoKo65 View Post
It would be much cheaper to use Talgo 250 trains between Paris and Madrid for example, than to build 1435 stretches in Spain.
The problems is for freight trains, not for passengers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoKo65 View Post
I wonder if Spain will really rebuild the whole network.
If they don't regauge their lines, rail freight traffic will remain low forever.
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Old June 1st, 2009, 05:52 PM   #423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
It would have sense, but it is simply too complicated to do.
Nearly all countries around Russia use 1520 gauge, so where would be the sense for Russia in regauging?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The problems is for freight trains, not for passengers.



If they don't regauge their lines, rail freight traffic will remain low forever.
So we should search for a technical solution like we did in passenger traffic.
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Old June 1st, 2009, 07:09 PM   #424
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Jun 01, 2009

New timetable for 2009/2010 comes into effect on Russia’s rail network.

At 00:00 Moscow Time on May 31, 2009, a new timetable for 2009/2010 came into operation on Russia’s rail network. New timetables normally come into effect on the last Sunday in May every year.

The number of scheduled passenger trains in 2008/2009 is in line with projected passenger numbers and amounts to 824 pairs of trains, of which 687 are operated by Russian Railways and 137 by CIS and foreign governments.

In order to meet demand, passenger services have been increased on the following popular routes: Moscow - Yevpatoriya, Moscow - Almaty, Belgorod - Saint-Petersburg, Voronezh - Odessa, Tynda - Anapa, Saransk - Moscow, Omsk – Nizhnevartovsk, Moscow - Novy Urengoy, Moscow - Cheboksary, Tyumen - Sverdlovsk, Komsomolsk-on-Amur - Vladivostok and Perm - Sverdlovsk.

The new timetable also provides for straight through carriages between Ruzaevka/Penza - Baku, Chita - Almaty, Izhevsk - Baku, Chelyabinsk - Kiev, Petrozavodsk - Simferopol, Petrozavodsk - Arkhangelsk, Murmansk - Belgorod and Adler - Petrozavodsk.

Routes have been extended on several trains: Train No. 135/136 St Petersburg – Mineralnye Vody to Makhachkala, Train No. 625/626 Penza - Samara to Ulyanovsk, Train No. 605/606 Moscow - Yelets to Lipetsk, Train No. 344/343 Perm – Priobye to Sverdlovsk.

One important step for optimising the timetable is to use more rolling stock on stretches with limited through capacity. To achieve this, 25 pairs of trains with 22 carriages in each will operate between Adler and Anapa during the summer period.

Due to low demand, 3 services have been eliminated: Rostov - Simferopol, St. Petersburg - Berdyansk and Chelyabinsk - Lvov, while Train No. 133/134 Vladivostok - Kharkov to Penza has been cut back.
http://eng.rzd.ru/wps/portal/rzdeng?...3920&id=104601

22 carriages, how many meters are that?
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Old June 1st, 2009, 10:25 PM   #425
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Russian Railways to buy trains from Bombardier

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Russian Railways to buy trains from Bombardier

By Anton Doroshev

SOCHI, Russia, May 29 (Reuters) - State-owned Russian Railways plans to order high-speed trains worth up to 550 million euros ($770 million) from Canada's Bombardier Inc as part of a push to develop the Olympic venue of Sochi, an executive said.

First Vice President Fyodor Andreyev said on Friday Russian Railways could order up to 54 trains from Bombardier, the world's No. 1 passenger train builder, to serve the region around the Russian city hosting the 2014 Winter Olympics.

'All the trains should be supplied by 2013,' Andreyev told reporters. He said the value of the order was likely to be between 500 million euros and 550 million.

Russia has pledged to spend about $12 billion developing Sochi on the Black Sea coast for the Olympics and the purchase of modern trains from a foreign supplier underlines its determination to host a showcase international event.

Russian Railways' press service said the company would not use part of the $12 billion earmarked by the state for the Bombardier deal. Andreyev said the company might raise a syndicated loan for the purchase. He gave no more details.

The financial crisis has left half of Russia's own train building factories idle as demand has plummeted.

Russian Railways has already placed an order worth 276 million euros with German engineering company Siemens AG for eight high-speed trains to serve major intercity routes from Moscow. This agreement includes additional maintenance costs of more than 354 million euros over 30 years.

The state monopoly has also ordered four trains from France's Alstom for around 120 million euros.

Both Siemens and Alstom have invested heavily in Russia's dilapidated train-building industry and plan to build trains in Russia.
http://www.finanznachrichten.de/nach...ardier-020.htm

I guess this could be Regina trains:
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Old June 1st, 2009, 10:34 PM   #426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoKo65 View Post
Nearly all countries around Russia use 1520 gauge, so where would be the sense for Russia in regauging?
In makes more difficult rail traffic between Russia and Europe, Russia and China, and between Europe and China. The 1520 mm network lies between two standard gauge islands, unlike Iberian peninsula (or Ireland) that is at the end of the continent. Iberian network is short and with few traffic, in this case a conversion can, and must, be done.

Thus, regauging Russian network would be better, but it is impossible to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoKo65 View Post
So we should search for a technical solution like we did in passenger traffic.
Variable gauge bogies for normal freight wagons and passenger trains, bigger and faster cranes to transfer containers between wagons.
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Old June 1st, 2009, 10:37 PM   #427
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
A Polish company has developed another system, the SUW 2000: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_gauge_axles

The problem is not for passenger trains, but for freights. But I think that this problem will be solved transhipping containers and maybe some variable gauge wagons.
SUW2000 is also suitable for freight cars. It is mounted on border between Poland and Ukraine an with Lithuania.
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Old June 1st, 2009, 10:53 PM   #428
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
In makes more difficult rail traffic between Russia and Europe, Russia and China, and between Europe and China. The 1520 mm network lies between two standard gauge islands, unlike Iberian peninsula (or Ireland) that is at the end of the continent. Iberian network is short and with few traffic, in this case a conversion can, and must, be done.

Thus, regauging Russian network would be better, but it is impossible to do.

[…]
But there is no border between Russia and european standard gauge countries, if we don't count Kaliningrad. So a regauging of Russia alone would make no sense.
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Old June 1st, 2009, 11:00 PM   #429
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Sorry, with "Russian network" I mean "the 1520/1524 mm gauge network".
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Old June 1st, 2009, 11:52 PM   #430
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The 1520 mm network lies between two standard gauge islands
That's why Russia and EU will building 1520mm freight lines in EU. I.e. it's EU network will be upgraded to Russian Standard gauge mainly on Russian money.
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Old June 2nd, 2009, 02:33 AM   #431
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Germany-Russia industrial relations are very interesting
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 11:27 AM   #432
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Originally Posted by JoKo65 View Post
Spain builds HSR in standard gauge, because in the 80ies, when this decisision was made, it hadn't been as simple as today to change gauge at the borders. The spanish decision looks like an anachronism from today's point of view. It would be much cheaper to use Talgo 250 trains between Paris and Madrid for example, than to build 1435 stretches in Spain.
I wonder if Spain will really rebuild the whole network, especially if EU incentives won't go to Spain and Portugal but to central Europe in the future. I'm afraid that Spain will be an "island-system": a 1670 network with a 1435 island within itself, because regauging the whole network will be too expensive.
No it does not. Changing gauge may be relatively fast nowadays, but its still a big time killer at least for a high speed train. The high speed network is a network on its own anyway, as it should be with real high speed tracks. It enables however neatless access to future French high speed corridors at the border.

I simply fail to see why building it in broad gauge would be cheaper. EU incentives for the rail corridors continue to flow btw and the Spanish highspeed network is already as I write a very impressive one.

When people change from that high speed system they change train anyway, so nothing is lost when they change with the train also the gauge.
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 08:26 PM   #433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
No it does not. Changing gauge may be relatively fast nowadays, but its still a big time killer at least for a high speed train. The high speed network is a network on its own anyway, as it should be with real high speed tracks. It enables however neatless access to future French high speed corridors at the border.

I simply fail to see why building it in broad gauge would be cheaper. EU incentives for the rail corridors continue to flow btw and the Spanish highspeed network is already as I write a very impressive one.

When people change from that high speed system they change train anyway, so nothing is lost when they change with the train also the gauge.

Changing wheel gauge does not need much time. A high speed train only has to slowdown to 10 km/h, go trough the "changing gauge station" (I don't know the exactly English word), and then speed up to high speed again.
These trains don't have to stop, because everything is done when the train is moving. So, the gauge change only takes a little more than stopping and speeding up again (Maybe 8 minutes in high speed>300 km/h trains?)

Also, about Spain, trains don't use the high speed line from point to point, but they uses it as a trunk line as well. They only take a portion of it, and then use the classical line to the final destination.
eg, there is a train from Madrid to Bilbao. It uses the High Speed Line until Valladolid, and then the classical line to Bilbao. Also, AFAIK, TGV does the same, but there is not a break of gauge.

I'm spanish, and I don't think changing the Russian gauge is a good idea. Very expensive, and the transitional state is horrible. In Spain, almost everything is ready to change the gauge (the trains are adaptable, the railways are adaptable automatically in a very few months) and there is a lot of problems even.
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Old June 4th, 2009, 09:34 AM   #434
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Russia is a massive huge country, it needs the best railway network and connections
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Old June 4th, 2009, 11:35 AM   #435
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speaking of chaning gauge: it looks that suw2000 is finally comming back on Warsaw - Kiev

http://www.railwaymarket.eu/archiwum...k+launched.htm


about SUW2000:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUW_2000

there is a number of problems, among them the fact that the SUW2000 manufacturer is going bankrupt:

http://www.zntkpoznan.com.pl

http://www.railwaymarket.eu/archiwum...inst+PZNTK.htm
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Old June 4th, 2009, 02:58 PM   #436
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Most recent press info. A declaration of Russia's economy's well being. Interesting project, already consumed USD 300m including - 4 (optionally 2 more) Pendolino trains, 200 kph.


Putin estimates the cost of the St Petersburg-Helsinki high-speed railway project at $2.5 billion

04.06.2009 (15:44)
Opening a high-speed railway communication between Petersburg and Helsinki will cost approximately $2.5 billion, the Prime Minister of the Russian Federation, Vladimir Putin, has said.

"This project on the Russian side is being funded by a State-Private Partnership. Its total cost will be about 2.5 billion US dollars, with more than a third of coming from budgetary funding," said Vladimir Putin on Wednesday at a meeting in Helsinki with Russian and Finnish businessmen.

He noted that, despite the negative consequences of the world crisis, which has affected Russian-Finnish trade and economic relations, it has become possible to continue planned large-scale projects.
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Old June 5th, 2009, 09:45 PM   #437
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Quote:
Jun 05, 2009

Russian Railways’ new e-registration service for long-distance trains gains popularity.

More than 1,600 passengers have already signed up to use our new service on Russian Railways long-distance trains running during the six weeks from 1 June to 17 July 2009. The Company began the sale of tickets by remote login on May 25. The first passengers using electronic tickets travelled on1 June, with 200 taking advantage of the service between 1 - 3 June.

During the trial period for the new service, passengers can use the new login service to book tickets on the following trains:

- Moscow - St. Petersburg - Moscow (Train Nos. 55/56, 23/24, 3 / 4, 159/160, 165/166);

- Moscow - Gorky - Moscow (Train Nos. 61/62, 119/120);

- Moscow - Kazan - Moscow (Train No. 49/50).

[…]
http://eng.rzd.ru/wps/portal/rzdeng?...3920&id=104641
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Old June 5th, 2009, 10:10 PM   #438
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Nice photo of the Finland station in St. Petersburg:

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Old June 6th, 2009, 03:12 AM   #439
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First of all, there will be no direct HSR between Russia and Continental Europe. Its just not reasonable. At most there could be (in a very very distant future) a couple of separate links most probably linking Warsaw to Minsk on the one side and Minsk and Moscow on the other. Poland - the nearest possible 1435 gauge destination is simply tooooo far. The HSR being build at a time in Russia is oriented toward Russian intern demand. No sane person would travel from Protugal or even from Poland to Russia on HSR, do you have the idea how much that would cost?! HSR are relatively short(medium)-range linkages, no-one travels 1000s of km on HSR, there are planes for that.

And the most important. Wide gauge is simply a lot more comfortable. I have traveled on both standards and I can only tell, if Russia have had a 1435 gauge it would be a disaster, no real comfortable overnight travel would be posible. Considering Russian distances that would be really bad.

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Old June 6th, 2009, 01:46 PM   #440
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First of all, there will be no direct HSR between Russia and Continental Europe. Its just not reasonable. At most there could be (in a very very distant future) a couple of separate links most probably linking Warsaw to Minsk on the one side and Minsk and Moscow on the other. Poland - the nearest possible 1435 gauge destination is simply tooooo far. The HSR being build at a time in Russia is oriented toward Russian intern demand. No sane person would travel from Protugal or even from Poland to Russia on HSR, do you have the idea how much that would cost?! HSR are relatively short(medium)-range linkages, no-one travels 1000s of km on HSR, there are planes for that.
Tokyo-Hakata is 1069 km. 5 hours by Nozomi.

True, planes do compete with that. A problem is that Shinkansen completely shuts down each night for maintenance, which is why the Japanese cannot run overnight trains.

The Chinese are seriously building high-speed lines Beijing-Shanghai (1300+ km) and Beijing-Guangzhou (2200+ km). Let´s see how their overnight trains shall compete with planes.

The Russians are due to build Moscow-Sochi HSR by 2014. Naturally with the detour through Tuapse to avoid higher Caucasus. How long is the route, and what shall the travel time be? And what is closer to Moscow - Sochi or Warszaw? What shall be the more popular destination, once the games are over?
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