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Old July 17th, 2012, 12:57 AM   #1821
MarcVD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Lame excuse...

Modern ventilation/air-conditioning systems clean the air of things like pollen and smells. Morevoer, modern rail cars without windows greatly reduces noise.

There is no upside, whatsoever, in opening windows.
Your opinion, not mine... The train trips I enjoy the most are those
where I can stand in the corridor, leaning at a largely open window,
enjoying every bit of the landscape I discover. If i have the choice
between a car with airco and one with opening windows, I will always
take the second one, even if it is an older one.

Of course I understand that for commuters doing the same journey
day after day, the choice might be different. May be for people
travelling on business too. For them, a train is nothing more than a
plane on wheels. But for me, a train journey in an unknown country
will always be something like a discovery, and to enjoy that, slow
speed and opening windows are essential.
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Old July 17th, 2012, 01:00 AM   #1822
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
That is a problem of lack of maitenance.

High-speed trains can't have windows that open anyway, because of their speed.
We were takling about the transsib, all right ? This can hardly be considered
high-speed. Unless may be the few hundredts of km immediately outside
Moscow, we never went faster than 120 km/h. At that speed, opening
windows are not a problem at all.
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Old July 17th, 2012, 01:06 AM   #1823
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
That is a problem of lack of maitenance.

High-speed trains can't have windows that open anyway, because of their speed.
You're as much funny as obnoxious. Small "emergency windows" for saving the poor Italian passengers from suffocation would be sure more feasible than your "observation cars with all-glass windows that cover part of the roof till the bottom as well" for the Transiberian railway
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Old July 17th, 2012, 01:13 AM   #1824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
That is a problem of lack of maitenance.

High-speed trains can't have windows that open anyway, because of their speed.
These are not high speed. Many people want to open a window every now and then as air con can dry the air too much. Intercities in the UK have windows that open at 200km/h in the vestibules, nobody seems to be bothered about these anyway. Obviously not all of the time are open windows the best, there is rain and in Russia forest fires burn all the time but part of the point of long distance train journeys is feeling some connection with the outside you don't get with flying, sealing yourself in stops this.

Also you can't take pictures like this on curves


Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Taken in Mongolia on the Trans-Mongolian somewhere south of Ulan Bator.
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Old July 17th, 2012, 01:44 AM   #1825
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Are there any plans for rapid rail to Vladivostok?
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Old July 17th, 2012, 01:21 PM   #1826
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Sorry for not subscribing to the caveman club.
Thank you for staying out of our way...

Quote:
Night trains on multiple-night routes should have sleepers with showers, simple as that.
When I was in boarding school we had a shower once a week. The rest of the days we just kept clean through a very clever invention called "washing yourself".
You should try it once...

When on night train I always take a pack of disposable moist towels with me. However, I must admit that I have used showers on trains too, when they were available.
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Old July 18th, 2012, 12:35 AM   #1827
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Are there any plans for rapid rail to Vladivostok?
Not that I know of, and it would not make sense anyway.
Nobody in his right mind would take a train as expensive as a plane
but only 1/4 as fast, for travelling such distances.
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Old July 18th, 2012, 01:57 AM   #1828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Not that I know of, and it would not make sense anyway.
Nobody in his right mind would take a train as expensive as a plane
but only 1/4 as fast, for travelling such distances.
It's far less than 1/4 as fast.

A direct flight Moscow-Valdivostok can easily attain an average speed of 720 km/h, whereas trains can't reach average speeds or even 130km/h - and they take a far more circuitous route than a direct flight path.
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Old July 18th, 2012, 02:19 AM   #1829
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Not that I know of, and it would not make sense anyway.
Nobody in his right mind would take a train as expensive as a plane
but only 1/4 as fast, for travelling such distances.
I probably would, although I think a plane could be cheaper. I'm not entirely sure what rapid rail means exactly, but I can't see a non stop service on this route, the trains stop in major cities so passengers can stretch their legs. A train could not run non stop all that way, it would run out of food.
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Old July 18th, 2012, 02:29 AM   #1830
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Not that I know of, and it would not make sense anyway.
Nobody in his right mind would take a train as expensive as a plane
but only 1/4 as fast, for travelling such distances.
But the speed of the train would be 400 km / h. That is half the speed of the aircraft.

Last edited by Kristian_KG; July 18th, 2012 at 02:44 AM.
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Old July 18th, 2012, 02:57 AM   #1831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stainless View Post
I probably would, although I think a plane could be cheaper. I'm not entirely sure what rapid rail means exactly, but I can't see a non stop service on this route, the trains stop in major cities so passengers can stretch their legs. A train could not run non stop all that way, it would run out of food.
I thinking on fast train. For example with superfast speed of 400+ km/h!
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Old July 18th, 2012, 03:04 AM   #1832
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Such a train would connect the European and Asian part of Russia as never before!
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Old July 18th, 2012, 07:43 AM   #1833
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristian_KG View Post
I thinking on fast train. For example with superfast speed of 400+ km/h!
But a 400+ km/h train doesn't make much sense. At those speeds energy use starts to exceed that of an airplane on long distances.
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Old July 18th, 2012, 08:01 AM   #1834
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristian_KG View Post
Are there any plans for rapid rail to Vladivostok?
Well, there is a plans for HSR along the transsiberian as far as Ekatirinburg. It's about 1 800 km for modern Transsib and may be a bit less for a planned HSR, which may take slightly straighter alignment.
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Old July 18th, 2012, 10:30 PM   #1835
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristian_KG View Post
Are there any plans for rapid rail to Vladivostok?
The only official plan is Vladivostok-Khabarovsk rapid rail. The construction of Moscow-Vladivostok rapid rail haven't any practical sense.

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Old July 18th, 2012, 10:44 PM   #1836
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
It's far less than 1/4 as fast.

A direct flight Moscow-Valdivostok can easily attain an average speed of 720 km/h, whereas trains can't reach average speeds or even 130km/h - and they take a far more circuitous route than a direct flight path.
Well if an high-speed line was built on this route, one might expect a better
average speed than 130 km/h. But in any case, on such distances, it would
be totally irrelevant. Same for all those intercontinental high speed lines that
the chinese pretend they want to build. There is simply no market for that.
On such distances, the only market is for tourist cruise trains. A niche market
still persists in countries where air travel is not yet developed or affordable
enough. That's what makes the transsib passenger operations survive now.
But as soon as air travel kicks in, long-distance passenger trains in Russia
will probably follow the same story as those in North America.
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Old July 18th, 2012, 10:55 PM   #1837
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Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Well if an high-speed line was built on this route, one might expect a better
average speed than 130 km/h. But in any case, on such distances, it would
be totally irrelevant. Same for all those intercontinental high speed lines that
the chinese pretend they want to build. There is simply no market for that.
On such distances, the only market is for tourist cruise trains. A niche market
still persists in countries where air travel is not yet developed or affordable
enough. That's what makes the transsib passenger operations survive now.
But as soon as air travel kicks in, long-distance passenger trains in Russia
will probably follow the same story as those in North America.
Isn't Moscow-Beijing fare somewhere around 800USD for the cheapest option? You can get cheaper than that on a plane from Moscow to Beijing... the train will survive as a mean of transport between smaller cities along the route and, of course, as a tourist attraction. It's the longest and probably one of the most exciting train journeys in the world. I am planning to do it just because it sounds so fascinating...
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Old July 19th, 2012, 08:26 AM   #1838
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The Siberian HSR system is a bit weird. Why no direct connection between Kemerovo and Novokuznetsk? They're both in the same oblast after all.

I can think of many city pairs in Russia where HSR would put them in commuting distance, such as Lipetsk-Tambov, Bryansk-Oryol, etc. Anyway, some Russian provincial oblast centers are way too poor for HSR, so the need is to focus on major cities.
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Old July 19th, 2012, 08:45 AM   #1839
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
That's what makes the transsib passenger operations survive now.
But as soon as air travel kicks in, long-distance passenger trains in Russia
will probably follow the same story as those in North America.
The transib doesn't solely exist to transport people between Moscow and Vladivostok. It also provides access to communities in between. I doubt that a large fraction of the passengers on the Transib travel the whole length.

In North America long distance passenger trains ahve the problem of being squeezed from both ends. Revenue is reduced because of competition, and costs are increased because of brain dead labor and safety rules...
The former will probably also happen in Russia, but maybe the latter can be avoided.
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Old July 19th, 2012, 06:18 PM   #1840
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Isn't Moscow-Beijing fare somewhere around 800USD for the cheapest option? You can get cheaper than that on a plane from Moscow to Beijing... the train will survive as a mean of transport between smaller cities along the route and, of course, as a tourist attraction. It's the longest and probably one of the most exciting train journeys in the world. I am planning to do it just because it sounds so fascinating...
When I did it last summer, I saw very few strangers. Essentially russian people.
Some were indeed what we would call tourists, almost none travelling for
business (those ones are already on planes), many visiting family or friends.
There was not that much movement at small intermediate stations, people
got on and off at large stations mostly. I suspect that you can get cheap prices
for flying out of Moscow because there is a lot of competition there, but it is
probably not the case from smaller cities like Ekaterinebourg, Novossibirsk,
Krasnoïarsk, or Irkoutsk. Where there is no competition, prices skyrocket. Look
at how much you have to pay to fly from or to Ulan-Bator !

If you have not been there already, I can tell you only one thing : go ! It's one
of the most wonderful journeys I have ever done.
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