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Old May 16th, 2007, 02:45 PM   #1081
James R. Hawkwood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Alloy View Post
There's no way that's Al Burj! It's a few hundred feet away from the water! I don't think it's possible to build something that tall on sand.
Look at Schipholl airport.. Look at Flevoland with its two cities... Almere and Flevo ... all built on former lake/sea beds so the question is... why not on sand?????

Burj Dubai on tv next week on tuesday 21:00 on Discovery Channel !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (!!!!)

Cheers!!!!
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Old May 16th, 2007, 03:15 PM   #1082
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yl75 View Post
Hello everybody I'm a newbie here

About below :





And :




It might be important to remind that the belief that towers are an efficient solution to high density housing is simply : a MYTH

Indeed if you consider an "infinite" built surface, with the same constraints on natural light for the buildings, slabs for instance are much more efficient than towers in terms of density of surface built per available surface.

This belief that towers are a solution comes probably from a false intuition : that light is "in the volume" or something, and that by reaching high you just gain more light "for free", or more built surface naturally lighted, on the same available land surface.

But this is simply false : the sunlight available on a given surface (of course if you consider a unitary surface amongst a similarly built environment) simply depends on this surface, the two dimensional plan crossing the sunlight, and not on the built volume !

So towers is just a way amongst others to "share" this constant available sunlight.

Will post some computations on this I'm playing with right now. Quite surprised that this is not more publicized by the way. Difficult to find clear text around this, probably :

"Leslie Martin and Lionel March, Land Use and Built Form, Cambridge Research, Cambridge University, April 1966"

Cannot find an online copy of it free or not, would anybody knows where I can find it ?

So simply put : a tower like Burj Dubai for housing "makes sense" (not really in fact more for the icon), but in any case it is "livable" only as an isolated building.

If you were to base your urbanism with a series of Burj Dubai compared to some 6 or ten storeys slabs with the same natural light constraints : THE SLABS ARE MUCH MORE EFFICIENT IN TERMS OF BUILT SURFACE PER AVAILABLE SQUARE KILOMETER THAN THE TOWERS

In fact the built density of the towers urbanism, always with the same natural light constraints, tends towards zero as the number of storeys tends to infinity!!

Whereas the density of the slabs urbanism tends to a constant as the number of storeys tends to infinity.

In other words, high rise buildings can liberate some very local land surface, in between the city buildings, but it is NOT a solution for increasing the overall density of the city (always with this natural light constraint), and with respect to this overall city density, the tower urbanism is counter productive compared to the slabs one, and in fact even more so compared to a court yards buildings based one.
Naturally Burj Dubai is not a very space efficient design in particular. With slab buildings i guess you mean horizontally plane buildings (such as rectangular)? cant you just build that kind of building, with innovative use of space, considerably higher than six floors? And it doesnt have to be those crude commie style buildings.

You lost me in your light constraint discussion. If i dont interpret it the correct way please explain. But there are techniques to lead down natural light through buildings.

You also dont have to situate all parts of the city in highrisedominated urbanity. But for example limit it to mostly commercial space. Altough i believe its inevitable for us to live more and more in multistorey buildings as the future comes.

I also have this unconventional vision of multistorey villacommunities But there are a lot of details to be taken care of before that vision can be presented in a somewhat viable fashion.

EDIT:

And welcome to the forums, and have fun
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Old May 16th, 2007, 03:41 PM   #1083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKing View Post
Naturally Burj Dubai is not a very space efficient design in particular. With slab buildings i guess you mean horizontally plane buildings (such as rectangular)? cant you just build that kind of building, with innovative use of space, considerably higher than six floors? And it doesnt have to be those crude commie style buildings.

You lost me in your light constraint discussion. If i dont interpret it the correct way please explain. But there are techniques to lead down natural light through buildings.

You also dont have to situate all parts of the city in highrisedominated urbanity. But for example limit it to mostly commercial space. Altough i believe its inevitable for us to live more and more in multistorey buildings as the future comes.

I also have this unconventional vision of multistorey villacommunities But there are a lot of details to be taken care of before that vision can be presented in a somewhat viable fashion.

EDIT:

And welcome to the forums, and have fun
"cant you just build that kind of building, with innovative use of space, considerably higher than six floors?"

Yes of course the buildings don't have to be the rectangular commie blocks, but the point is, and it is simply a mathematical/physical fact, that you don't gain ANYTHING in terms of overall city density with high rise buildings given some constant natural lighting constraints for the surface built. And that under these same constraints, towers are highly inefficient compared to slabs style or court yards buildings with respect to density of surface built over available land surface.

The constraints can obviously be, and are, "lowered" for office buildings, but I think for housing they should be kept to a good level.

Will post the calculus and sketchup overviews if I get the time to finish them up.

In fact I was doing these calculus not finding anything anywhere and I guess it must be similar to what appears in the Lesli Martin's paper cited here :

"Lionel March and Leslie Martin have made a major contribution to this discussion. (Leslie Martin and Lionel March, Land Use and Built Form, Cambridge Research, Cambridge University, April 1966.) Using the ratio of built floor area to total site area as a measure of density and the semi-depth of the building as a measure of daylight conditions, they have compared three different arrangements of building and open space, which they call S0, S1 und S2.
"
http://www.uni-weimar.de/architektur...07/ca_107.html

About "But there are techniques to lead down natural light through buildings."

There might be techniques working to a certain point (atrium or light well, even with mirrors, do not really work past 8 or 10 floors I think), but anyway the point is that for a given land surface the sunlight available depends on this surface , and not on the volume above, there is no "miracle" to happen here (provided you consider a surface as part of a simiarly built environment). Again you basically don't gain anything at the city level by adding floors. Housing towers can make sense at the South of cemetaries or open space, but that's about it

Then after, the number of floors is somehow a matter of architecture or urbanism style, but it is not a solution to having a denser urbanism in terms of surface built : passed a certain number of floors, a slab urbanism will lead to the same density whatever the number of floors, as you will have to increase the space between the buildings under the same lighting constraints.

Oh and thanks a lot for the welcome

Last edited by yl75; May 16th, 2007 at 06:29 PM.
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Old May 16th, 2007, 03:48 PM   #1084
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16/May/2007

Burj Dubai





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Old May 16th, 2007, 03:51 PM   #1085
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The updates are coming thick and fast. Thanks for all the close-up detailed shots.
In Imre's pics above you can see the workmen putting on the attachments for the cladding.

Last edited by Zollern; May 16th, 2007 at 04:00 PM.
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Old May 16th, 2007, 03:55 PM   #1086
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16/May/2007

Burj Dubai

from Nad Al Sheba famous roundabout





from Satwa




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Old May 16th, 2007, 04:03 PM   #1087
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16/May/2007

Burj Dubai

from my favourite place







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Old May 16th, 2007, 04:13 PM   #1088
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I feel "sorry" for the Rose Rotana. It looks so ... insignificant.
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Old May 16th, 2007, 05:47 PM   #1089
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The Burj simply dwarfs everything!!
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Old May 16th, 2007, 06:10 PM   #1090
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I feel "sorry" for the Rose Rotana. It looks so ... insignificant.
yes just like you
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Old May 16th, 2007, 06:42 PM   #1091
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Originally Posted by James R. Hawkwood View Post
Burj Dubai on tv next week on tuesday 21:00 on Discovery Channel !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (!!!!)
Long time lurker here...but I've just gotta ask about this. Is this a rerun of the previous program Megabuilders? Or is this something new? I couldn't find it on the Discovery Channel site.
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Old May 16th, 2007, 06:47 PM   #1092
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Originally Posted by jlh630 View Post
Long time lurker here...but I've just gotta ask about this. Is this a rerun of the previous program Megabuilders? Or is this something new? I couldn't find it on the Discovery Channel site.
This is all the info it has:

Mega Builders
Extreme Elevation
TV-PG, CC

An international team of construction engineers are building the world's tallest skyscraper in the United Arab Emirate city of Dubai. At close to three quarters of a kilometer high, the Burj Dubai's will push these workers wits to the to the limit.
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Old May 16th, 2007, 07:12 PM   #1093
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The Burj Dubai looks very nice and tall. And when the cladding is more advanced it will look awsome and nice.
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Old May 16th, 2007, 07:13 PM   #1094
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yl75 View Post
"cant you just build that kind of building, with innovative use of space, considerably higher than six floors?"

Yes of course the buildings don't have to be the rectangular commie blocks, but the point is, and it is simply a mathematical/physical fact, that you don't gain ANYTHING in terms of overall city density with high rise buildings given some constant natural lighting constraints for the surface built. And that under these same constraints, towers are highly inefficient compared to slabs style or court yards buildings with respect to density of surface built over available land surface.

The constraints can obviously be, and are, "lowered" for office buildings, but I think for housing they should be kept to a good level.

Will post the calculus and sketchup overviews if I get the time to finish them up.

In fact I was doing these calculus not finding anything anywhere and I guess it must be similar to what appears in the Lesli Martin's paper cited here :

"Lionel March and Leslie Martin have made a major contribution to this discussion. (Leslie Martin and Lionel March, Land Use and Built Form, Cambridge Research, Cambridge University, April 1966.) Using the ratio of built floor area to total site area as a measure of density and the semi-depth of the building as a measure of daylight conditions, they have compared three different arrangements of building and open space, which they call S0, S1 und S2.
"
http://www.uni-weimar.de/architektur...07/ca_107.html

About "But there are techniques to lead down natural light through buildings."

There might be techniques working to a certain point (atrium or light well, even with mirrors, do not really work past 8 or 10 floors I think), but anyway the point is that for a given land surface the sunlight available depends on this surface , and not on the volume above, there is no "miracle" to happen here (provided you consider a surface as part of a simiarly built environment). Again you basically don't gain anything at the city level by adding floors. Housing towers can make sense at the South of cemetaries or open space, but that's about it

Then after, the number of floors is somehow a matter of architecture or urbanism style, but it is not a solution to having a denser urbanism in terms of surface built : passed a certain number of floors, a slab urbanism will lead to the same density whatever the number of floors, as you will have to increase the space between the buildings under the same lighting constraints.

Oh and thanks a lot for the welcome
I believe i understand fully what you mean about the light and the problem with having many high-rise buildings as they need more space in between (becouse of lightconditions). Also your link seems very interesting and i will make sure to read it.

A solution for being able to build higher with an larger amount of total floor space may be semitransparent buildings, what i mean is that the building are not only planned individually, but by planning them from the point of the surrounding you could have diagonal transparent ways through buildings which would allow sunlight to reach all levels of the urban complex of the city. Good infrastrucutre as ive earlier mentioned, both for transport and communication and recreation areas could make it a comfortable environment alongside the possibility to also utopiawise have multistorey villacommunities. An prerequisite for it to function is of course the pollutionfree transport, fuel cells, hydrogen combustion engines and other alternatives.

It might be unviable today but also as ive mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, the marketconditions of the future will change with higher population, the need to show consideration to nature and higher pollution and land devastation costs becouse of growing federal environmental care costs, so as to that the market forces might favour this kinds of brave new initiatives from developers.
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Old May 16th, 2007, 07:14 PM   #1095
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Old May 16th, 2007, 07:20 PM   #1096
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so I havent checked this in a while....but daaaaamn that focker is tall :O
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Old May 16th, 2007, 07:22 PM   #1097
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Originally Posted by Wikidboo View Post
Sampras....thats cause we have the threat of terrorism.
Ironically that threat comes from the same region these new towers are being built.

Also the architects that are building some of these towers are from the US
That's true. For ex. Sears tower is very high. They could hit it any time. So why not build more close to similar meter-high towers? One reason is that there's not so much space for the new skycrapers in the downtowns of USA unlike Dubai. They've got as muh room as they want. And u should also consider that Dubai is as rich as possible. They've got the money for all the towers and more. And it's now just growing. The cities of USA are pretty full built. They should demolish something before building new skyscrapers which will be a difficult thing to do because of all the disapproving people.

Btw, does anyone know when the Burj Dubai will reach its final altitude?
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Old May 16th, 2007, 07:29 PM   #1098
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breathtaking update imre!!! counted 126F
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Old May 16th, 2007, 07:36 PM   #1099
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Lol Escoto, are you sure you wanted to post this video?
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Old May 16th, 2007, 07:42 PM   #1100
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breathtaking update imre!!! counted 126F
That's because you can't count!
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