Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers - Page 204

WatcherZero · May 17th, 2012, 05:51 AM

US Airforce has decided against using the F35B as a A10 Warthog replacement ostensibly as it doesnt generate enough sorties, but really it comes down to cost. It was looking at it to fulfill the requirement for combat in an advanced air defence environment requiring stealth or fifth generation fighters. Drones currently lack the ability to operate in advanced hostile airspace.

The target sortie rate of the F35A and C is 3 per day with 4 per day for the F35B. The current testing has them all beating the target sortie rate with the A managing 3.5 per day, C managing 4 and the B managing 6.

***Matthieu*** · May 17th, 2012, 09:15 AM

As far as I know a vertical take-off drains a lot of fuel, it's proportional to the weight of the plane and AFAIK the radars used on AWACS are fairly heavy.

For the size thing if a C-2/E-2 can operate from the CdG they could, with the proper equipment, be used on the QE class too.

AXISPAW · May 17th, 2012, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthieu

As far as I know a vertical take-off drains a lot of fuel, it's proportional to the weight of the plane and AFAIK the radars used on AWACS are fairly heavy.

For the size thing if a C-2/E-2 can operate from the CdG they could, with the proper equipment, be used on the QE class too.

Yeah but it would be stupid to operate a V22 in vtol rather than stovl from a QE class.

LondonFox · May 17th, 2012, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AXISPAW

Yeah but it would be stupid to operate a V22 in vtol rather than stovl from a QE class.

I don't believe it is possible to operate a V22 as STOVL anyway... the rotor blades are too big to be pointing forwards on the ground... they would simply smash on the floor. It has to take off like a helicopter surely? Either way I think an AEW variant of the Osprey is the best way forward for the QE Class... it can even double up as a drop ship for marines.

AXISPAW · May 17th, 2012, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LondonFox

I don't believe it is possible to operate a V22 as STOVL anyway... the rotor blades are too big to be pointing forwards on the ground... they would simply smash on the floor. It has to take off like a helicopter surely? Either way I think an AEW variant of the Osprey is the best way forward for the QE Class... it can even double up as a drop ship for marines.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6oZsxJ6wtc">YouTube Link</a>

They can be.

eldritch · May 17th, 2012, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AXISPAW

They can be.

How can they,this says they can't.

Steely Dan · May 17th, 2012, 06:02 PM

^ i believe that the V-22 can perform STOL with the rotors tilted at an angle somewhere between 0 and 90 degrees. obviously if the rotors are tilted down to 0, the rotor blades would smash into the ground, but with a 45 degree tilt, they'll clear the ground, but still allow the aircraft to perform a rolling short take-off as opposed to a purely vertical take-off when the rotors are tilted to 90 degrees.

but i don't know if such a maneuver has ever been used from the deck of a gator.

AXISPAW · May 17th, 2012, 06:16 PM

The*Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey*is an American multi-mission, military,*tiltrotor*aircraft with both a vertical takeoff and landing (VTOL), and short takeoff and landing (STOL) capability. It is designed to combine the functionality of a conventional*helicopter*with the long-range, high-speed cruise performance of a*turboprop*aircraft

southseasteve · May 17th, 2012, 07:07 PM

There's plenty of clips on YouTube of V22 doing rolling take offs. As has been said the props are at about a 45 degree angle during take off.
The take off distance is very short, easily do able on the Queen Elizabeth.
Although the ski jump could be a problem!

AXISPAW · May 17th, 2012, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by southseasteve

There's plenty of clips on YouTube of V22 doing rolling take offs. As has been said the props are at about a 45 degree angle during take off.
The take off distance is very short, easily do able on the Queen Elizabeth.
Although the ski jump could be a problem!

I'd presume by the time it reached the ski jump the rotors would be angled more vertical.

Pompey77 · May 17th, 2012, 10:23 PM

For what reasons would an osprey do a rolling takeoff or landing?

Core Rising · May 17th, 2012, 10:46 PM

To save fuel.

LondonFox · May 18th, 2012, 01:13 AM

The fuel saved would be tiny.

WatcherZero · May 18th, 2012, 02:16 AM

It can carry more weight (more fuel) with a rolling short take off than a straight vertical takeoff. Same thing applies to the Stovl fighters who wouldnt be able to lift off fully armed with a vertical takeoff.

Electric_City · May 18th, 2012, 02:33 AM

LondonFox · May 18th, 2012, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electric_City

But that's not the deck of a carrier...

southseasteve · May 18th, 2012, 12:43 PM

The Osprey looks a good option as the AEW platform for the QEC, I'm just not sure there is the money or desire to procure a bespoke aircraft with a very limited production run.

Let's not forget the AEW Seaking is an amazing bit of kit. It might not have the endurance or altitude capability, but I know from experience it does a pretty good job at long range fleet AEW. I think the best we can hope for is a AEW version of the Merlin.

Not withstanding the above, I'd still like us to buy the V22 for AEW and COD duties. I just think it's a not starter.

Blackpool88 · May 18th, 2012, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LondonFox

The fuel saved would be tiny.

Surely with a vertical takeoff the only form of lift generated comes directly from the rotors where as if you do a rolling start you also have the lift generated from the wings hence needing less energy and saving fuel.

LondonFox · May 18th, 2012, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackpool88

Surely with a vertical takeoff the only form of lift generated comes directly from the rotors where as if you do a rolling start you also have the lift generated from the wings hence needing less energy and saving fuel.

From a long ground runway... yes..

From a carrier deck... its simply not long enough.

eldritch · May 18th, 2012, 05:15 PM

Personaly at this moment in time I would not want to go down the V22 path.
Although we have reverted to the F35B version of JCA ,it is still light years ahead of Harrier. So that although the RN has years of experience in operating VSTOL aircraft from carriers,we will be relearning the whole issue of carrier ops with a new aircraft type.

To add into this scenario another highly complex aircraft,bringing with it the logistical,maintenance and training issues,would be detrimental to getting CVF and its airgroup up and running as an operational asset,in the short term.

For now we should stick with Merlin as an AEW asset,it will integrate smoothly into CVF ops without the problems V22 would bring. Not the ideal solution but the best for us at the moment.

After we have these carriers up and running,and more importantly have the money available then we can look at an enhanced AEW capability.

May 17th, 2012, 05:51 AM	#4061
WatcherZero Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 15,607	US Airforce has decided against using the F35B as a A10 Warthog replacement ostensibly as it doesnt generate enough sorties, but really it comes down to cost. It was looking at it to fulfill the requirement for combat in an advanced air defence environment requiring stealth or fifth generation fighters. Drones currently lack the ability to operate in advanced hostile airspace. The target sortie rate of the F35A and C is 3 per day with 4 per day for the F35B. The current testing has them all beating the target sortie rate with the A managing 3.5 per day, C managing 4 and the B managing 6. Last edited by WatcherZero; May 17th, 2012 at 06:26 AM.

May 17th, 2012, 09:15 AM	#4062
*Matthieu* Administrateur Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Tarbes, the capital of the world Posts: 12,311 Likes (Received): 87	As far as I know a vertical take-off drains a lot of fuel, it's proportional to the weight of the plane and AFAIK the radars used on AWACS are fairly heavy. For the size thing if a C-2/E-2 can operate from the CdG they could, with the proper equipment, be used on the QE class too. __________________ "To erect a tall building is to proclaim one’s faith in the future, the skyline is a seismograph of optimism." Jean Nouvel

May 17th, 2012, 06:02 PM	#4067
Steely Dan facist lord of the cosmos Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: old style city Posts: 2,598 Likes (Received): 5	^ i believe that the V-22 can perform STOL with the rotors tilted at an angle somewhere between 0 and 90 degrees. obviously if the rotors are tilted down to 0, the rotor blades would smash into the ground, but with a 45 degree tilt, they'll clear the ground, but still allow the aircraft to perform a rolling short take-off as opposed to a purely vertical take-off when the rotors are tilted to 90 degrees. but i don't know if such a maneuver has ever been used from the deck of a gator. __________________ "I wish they'd hurry up and just destroy humanity already........... it's the waiting that I can't stand" - Philip J. Fry Last edited by Steely Dan; May 17th, 2012 at 06:08 PM.

May 18th, 2012, 01:13 AM	#4073
LondonFox Registered User Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,100 Likes (Received): 127	The fuel saved would be tiny. __________________ Riot shields, Voodoo economics. It's just business, cattle prods and the I.M.F. I trust I can rely on your vote.

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May 17th, 2012, 06:16 PM	#4068
AXISPAW Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Aberdeen Posts: 835 Likes (Received): 5	TheBell Boeing V-22 Ospreyis an American multi-mission, military,tiltrotoraircraft with both a vertical takeoff and landing (VTOL), and short takeoff and landing (STOL) capability. It is designed to combine the functionality of a conventionalhelicopterwith the long-range, high-speed cruise performance of aturbopropaircraft

May 17th, 2012, 07:07 PM	#4069
southseasteve Registered User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Brighton Posts: 438 Likes (Received): 1	There's plenty of clips on YouTube of V22 doing rolling take offs. As has been said the props are at about a 45 degree angle during take off. The take off distance is very short, easily do able on the Queen Elizabeth. Although the ski jump could be a problem!

May 17th, 2012, 10:23 PM	#4071
Pompey77 Pompodian in Exile Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Bristol Posts: 1,632 Likes (Received): 4	For what reasons would an osprey do a rolling takeoff or landing?

May 17th, 2012, 10:46 PM	#4072
Core Rising Ampersands & What Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: London/ Nottingham Posts: 4,829	To save fuel.

May 18th, 2012, 02:16 AM	#4074
WatcherZero Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 15,607	It can carry more weight (more fuel) with a rolling short take off than a straight vertical takeoff. Same thing applies to the Stovl fighters who wouldnt be able to lift off fully armed with a vertical takeoff.

May 18th, 2012, 02:33 AM	#4075
Electric_City Wired Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: York Posts: 2,818 Likes (Received): 4

May 18th, 2012, 12:43 PM	#4077
southseasteve Registered User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Brighton Posts: 438 Likes (Received): 1	The Osprey looks a good option as the AEW platform for the QEC, I'm just not sure there is the money or desire to procure a bespoke aircraft with a very limited production run. Let's not forget the AEW Seaking is an amazing bit of kit. It might not have the endurance or altitude capability, but I know from experience it does a pretty good job at long range fleet AEW. I think the best we can hope for is a AEW version of the Merlin. Not withstanding the above, I'd still like us to buy the V22 for AEW and COD duties. I just think it's a not starter.

May 18th, 2012, 05:15 PM	#4080
eldritch Registered User Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 9 Likes (Received): 0	Personaly at this moment in time I would not want to go down the V22 path. Although we have reverted to the F35B version of JCA ,it is still light years ahead of Harrier. So that although the RN has years of experience in operating VSTOL aircraft from carriers,we will be relearning the whole issue of carrier ops with a new aircraft type. To add into this scenario another highly complex aircraft,bringing with it the logistical,maintenance and training issues,would be detrimental to getting CVF and its airgroup up and running as an operational asset,in the short term. For now we should stick with Merlin as an AEW asset,it will integrate smoothly into CVF ops without the problems V22 would bring. Not the ideal solution but the best for us at the moment. After we have these carriers up and running,and more importantly have the money available then we can look at an enhanced AEW capability.