BRAZIL | High Speed Rail

[hkskyline]

Brazil mulls high-speed rail linking Rio and Sao Paulo
26 April 2007

SAO PAULO, Brazil (AP) - Brazil has approved feasibility studies for a proposed US$9 billion (€6.6 billion) bullet train linking its two largest cities.

Approval for the studies was granted Wednesday by the federal accounting court, Justice Augusto Nardes said in a statement.

Brazil's scattered railroads now are devoted almost exclusively to cargo, forcing passengers to choose between expensive air travel or precarious highways.

The bullet train would run mostly underground and would cover the 400-kilometer (250-mile) trip between Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo in an hour and a half at a cost about US$60 (€45) each way, O Globo newspaper reported.

A flight between the two cities takes about 45 minutes and costs about US$100 (€75). At peak hours, demand is so high that air shuttles take off every five to 10 minutes.

Three South Korean companies and one from Italy have expressed interest in bidding, which could begin in the next 90 days, O Globo said. Construction is expected to take seven years.

French train maker Alstom has also expressed interest, the Agencia Estado news service reported earlier this month.

High-speed service could eventually be extended to Belo Horizonte in the north and Curitiba in the south, O Globo said.

A bullet-train link between Rio and Sao Paulo has been discussed for decades, but never reached an advanced planning stage. The two cities have a combined population of almost 30 million people.

[Swede]

Two huge cities just 400km apart. HSR is pretty obvious, really. Hope it actually happens this time What sort of time-frame is likely, and any possible extensions?

[city_thing]

The train would run mostly underground? Is the area between the two cities dense enough to need that?

[phubben]

Originally Posted by city_thing

The train would run mostly underground? Is the area between the two cities dense enough to need that?

Wouldn't it be mostly a matter of mountains?

[SimFox]

400km tunnel??? underground, does that mean that or simply in covered ditch?? Given the price tag of $9 billion it couldn't possibly be a tunnel per se...

[mopc]

The road between Sao Paulo and Rio is quite good, excellent as a matter of fact, and air fare is not so high, some $60. Competition will be tough, but I really do hope it gets built. The traffic between these cities is huge.

[Yappofloyd]

An obvious corridor for HSR and one would hope after 30 years of talking some action will result. Any updates?

[UrbanImpact]

Originally Posted by city_thing

The train would run mostly underground? Is the area between the two cities dense enough to need that?

South Eastern Brazil is very hilly.

[el palmesano]

when will be finish??

[Pavlov's Dog]

To pay for this project and ensure it's success I feel that they should sell and or develop the tiny city center airports in both cities.

Santos Dumont airport in Rio is prime waterfront property right in the middle of the business district. That alone could fetch billions.

In Sao Paolo they could develop Congonhas Airport as well for another couple hundred million.

Since those two airports are largely used for shuttle operations between the two cities, closing them and selling/developing them would not only raise financing for the project but guarantee it's success.

[FM 2258]

Originally Posted by mopc

The road between Sao Paulo and Rio is quite good, excellent as a matter of fact, and air fare is not so high, some $60. Competition will be tough, but I really do hope it gets built. The traffic between these cities is huge.

I was thinking about the airfare. Maybe money would be better spent on extending the runways at Congonhas(CGH) airport using bridges like they've done on Funchal Madiera Airport(FNC)..

[hkskyline]

Brazil moves closer to high speed train tender
22 January 2008

BRASILIA, (Reuters) - The Brazilian government plans to request bids to build an $11 billion high speed railway in the first half of 2009, according to an official infrastructure investment plan presented Tuesday.

The proposed railway is to link the international airports of Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo, as well as a cargo airport in the city of Campinas in Sao Paulo state.

The decision to move ahead with the high speed railway linking the country's two largest cities follows an on-and-off aviation crisis since September 2006 with flight delays and two major plane crashes.

Authorities have been trying to reduce traffic at crowded urban airports, especially Sao Paulo's Congonhas airport, where a TAM airlines Airbus overshot the runway, killing a total of 199 people in July 2007.

A French-led consortium signed a contract last week to build a one billion euros ($1.48 billion) fast railtrack line in Argentina, linking the cities of Buenos Aires, Cordoba, and Rosario. (Reporting by Raymond Colitt and Isabel Versiani, editing by Dave Zimmerman)

[Dan]

Great that it is moving along, but I wish it had been this year still.

[sotavento]

Originally Posted by FM 2258

I was thinking about the airfare. Maybe money would be better spent on extending the runways at Congonhas(CGH) airport using bridges like they've done on Funchal Madiera Airport(FNC)..

Are you nuts ??? tell me you are joking ... Congonhas area is FULLY developed already ... the only thing that doesn't have houses build is the Runlays themselves practicaly.

Its a 500m x 2000m area without housing ... and around a radius of some 20km its all developed.

If it is to extend the TGV south to Curitiba it would probably be better to run a tunnel underneath the city and conver the airport into a TGV/Urban transit HUB as i is practicaly the only area in the city center seemingly able to acomodate such station.

[Skywalk]

High speed rail is very expensive to build, especially in mountaineous terrain like between Sao Paulo and Rio. But even worse, it also has very high maintenance costs which cause ticket prices very high. High speed rail travel can easily be more expensive than even air travel.

I think, it would be much better just to build a road suitable for high speeds, similar to the German Autobahn, and then run high speed buses on it, with speeds of about 200 kph. With such speeds these buses would easily cover the 400 km distance in just a bit more than 2 hours.

Unlike railways, buses and roads are cheap, both to build and to maintain. Unlike railway trains, vehicles with rubber tires can climb slopes of 8% or even more without problems. The dedicated high speed road should have concrete surface, like a German Autobahn, but unlike it, it should have superelevation in curves, up to 12%. This would allow curves to be built much sharper, allowing to go around hills instead of going through them with a tunnel. All this would allow the high speed road to be built much, much cheaper in this mountaneous terrain than a railway. As was stated in the original post, a railway would have to go mostly underground in this terrain.

The high speed road should be run on a schedule, like a railway. This would rule out any delays because of congestion. The road and the vehicles running on it should be equipped with a train control system just like those for railways, so that vehicles will always keep safety distance and always maintain the appropriate speed for the section of the road which they are on.

If buses would run with a headway of 1 minute and each bus would seat 40 passengers, this would allow for plenty capacity, 2400 passengers per hour and direction, as much as three double-set ICE3 trainsets. Maybe it would be possible to run vehicles even closer, with a headway of just 30 seconds, thus further increasing capacity.

If not all timetable paths are required for buses, then these could be sold to passenger cars, too, provided they are capable of maintaining the required speeds and equipped with the "trainside" part of the train control system. Most probably some wealthy people would want to use this high speed road, too, and pay dearly for it, thus increasing profitability of the road.

The high speed buses could run on ordinary roads, too, albeit with normal speed, thus allowing them to reach every location in both cities or in their vicinities. With many stations for departure and arrival, spread all over both cities, much more people would find themselves living close to one of them. The buses would link many station pairs directly, without requiring passengers to change to transit at the start or end their journey, without additional costs for infrastructure.

[urbanfan89]

^ Is all that a joke?

[Joop20]

Originally Posted by Skywalk

High speed rail is very expensive to build, especially in mountaineous terrain like between Sao Paulo and Rio. But even worse, it also has very high maintenance costs which cause ticket prices very high. High speed rail travel can easily be more expensive than even air travel.

I think, it would be much better just to build a road suitable for high speeds, similar to the German Autobahn, and then run high speed buses on it, with speeds of about 200 kph. With such speeds these buses would easily cover the 400 km distance in just a bit more than 2 hours.

Unlike railways, buses and roads are cheap, both to build and to maintain. Unlike railway trains, vehicles with rubber tires can climb slopes of 8% or even more without problems. The dedicated high speed road should have concrete surface, like a German Autobahn, but unlike it, it should have superelevation in curves, up to 12%. This would allow curves to be built much sharper, allowing to go around hills instead of going through them with a tunnel. All this would allow the high speed road to be built much, much cheaper in this mountaneous terrain than a railway. As was stated in the original post, a railway would have to go mostly underground in this terrain.

The high speed road should be run on a schedule, like a railway. This would rule out any delays because of congestion. The road and the vehicles running on it should be equipped with a train control system just like those for railways, so that vehicles will always keep safety distance and always maintain the appropriate speed for the section of the road which they are on.

If buses would run with a headway of 1 minute and each bus would seat 40 passengers, this would allow for plenty capacity, 2400 passengers per hour and direction, as much as three double-set ICE3 trainsets. Maybe it would be possible to run vehicles even closer, with a headway of just 30 seconds, thus further increasing capacity.

If not all timetable paths are required for buses, then these could be sold to passenger cars, too, provided they are capable of maintaining the required speeds and equipped with the "trainside" part of the train control system. Most probably some wealthy people would want to use this high speed road, too, and pay dearly for it, thus increasing profitability of the road.

The high speed buses could run on ordinary roads, too, albeit with normal speed, thus allowing them to reach every location in both cities or in their vicinities. With many stations for departure and arrival, spread all over both cities, much more people would find themselves living close to one of them. The buses would link many station pairs directly, without requiring passengers to change to transit at the start or end their journey, without additional costs for infrastructure.

Dude,what crack are you on? high speed busses that leave every minute and have a capacity of 40 people that have to travel 400 km??? I think there's a reason why there are no such buslines in the world lol. As was already stated in this thread, there is an excellent road network between Rio and SP, but it is a very busy corridor. Moreover, you would lose any speed advantage if the busses would have to reach many locations in a megacity like SP.

High speed rail has been tried and tested around the world, and obviously it's a great and environmental friendly solution for a high density corridor like that in Brazil.

[Dan]

That it doesn't seem like it will open before the world cup is insane though.

It already is hard enough getting between the two cities today...with the traffic levels there will be during the world cup, it'll be horrible.

[Cristovão471]

Originally Posted by Skywalk

High speed rail is very expensive to build, especially in mountaineous terrain like between Sao Paulo and Rio. But even worse, it also has very high maintenance costs which cause ticket prices very high. High speed rail travel can easily be more expensive than even air travel.

I think, it would be much better just to build a road suitable for high speeds, similar to the German Autobahn, and then run high speed buses on it, with speeds of about 200 kph. With such speeds these buses would easily cover the 400 km distance in just a bit more than 2 hours.

Unlike railways, buses and roads are cheap, both to build and to maintain. Unlike railway trains, vehicles with rubber tires can climb slopes of 8% or even more without problems. The dedicated high speed road should have concrete surface, like a German Autobahn, but unlike it, it should have superelevation in curves, up to 12%. This would allow curves to be built much sharper, allowing to go around hills instead of going through them with a tunnel. All this would allow the high speed road to be built much, much cheaper in this mountaneous terrain than a railway. As was stated in the original post, a railway would have to go mostly underground in this terrain.

The high speed road should be run on a schedule, like a railway. This would rule out any delays because of congestion. The road and the vehicles running on it should be equipped with a train control system just like those for railways, so that vehicles will always keep safety distance and always maintain the appropriate speed for the section of the road which they are on.

If buses would run with a headway of 1 minute and each bus would seat 40 passengers, this would allow for plenty capacity, 2400 passengers per hour and direction, as much as three double-set ICE3 trainsets. Maybe it would be possible to run vehicles even closer, with a headway of just 30 seconds, thus further increasing capacity.

If not all timetable paths are required for buses, then these could be sold to passenger cars, too, provided they are capable of maintaining the required speeds and equipped with the "trainside" part of the train control system. Most probably some wealthy people would want to use this high speed road, too, and pay dearly for it, thus increasing profitability of the road.

The high speed buses could run on ordinary roads, too, albeit with normal speed, thus allowing them to reach every location in both cities or in their vicinities. With many stations for departure and arrival, spread all over both cities, much more people would find themselves living close to one of them. The buses would link many station pairs directly, without requiring passengers to change to transit at the start or end their journey, without additional costs for infrastructure.

Damn thats stupid. One reason it wouldn't happen is because of rising oil prices. Get with the times.

[goschio]

Originally Posted by cristobal_underscore

Damn thats stupid. One reason it wouldn't happen is because of rising oil prices. Get with the times.

Just use nuclear power for the buses. So they can reach easily 400km/h. Or put wings on the buses so they become Airbuses. Ok, I go away.