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Old March 11th, 2008, 06:37 PM   #21
Trainman Dave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joop20 View Post
...... high speed busses that leave every minute and have a capacity of 40 people that have to travel 400 km??? I think there's a reason why there are no such buslines in the world lol.
Almost!!!!!!!

Ten years ago I traveled from Mexico City to Guadalajara on a high speed (relatively) bus with had less than 30 seats. At the Mexico City bus station there were 18 buses (at various prices) scheduled to leave for Guadalajara during that hour. During the ride, our driver was racing other buses to Guadalajara.
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Old March 11th, 2008, 06:48 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
Almost!!!!!!!

Ten years ago I traveled from Mexico City to Guadalajara on a high speed (relatively) bus with had less than 30 seats. At the Mexico City bus station there were 18 buses (at various prices) scheduled to leave for Guadalajara during that hour. During the ride, our driver was racing other buses to Guadalajara.
lol trainman dave, another example why high speed rail is a better solution in densely populated corridors
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Old March 11th, 2008, 07:37 PM   #23
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lol trainman dave, another example why high speed rail is a better solution in densely populated corridors
I agree with you but there is a reason for the bus networks to be found all over the world.

The cost of initial investment in a new bus line is very low so many small businesses can be started with out any national capital need. When I was in the main Bus Terminal in Mexico City there must have almost 50 different companies offering long distance services all over Mexico and into Texas.

The problem with building new railroads of any speed is the requirement for very expensive capital!
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Old March 11th, 2008, 10:59 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
I agree with you but there is a reason for the bus networks to be found all over the world.

The cost of initial investment in a new bus line is very low so many small businesses can be started with out any national capital need. When I was in the main Bus Terminal in Mexico City there must have almost 50 different companies offering long distance services all over Mexico and into Texas.

The problem with building new railroads of any speed is the requirement for very expensive capital!
Totaly true, but I still think it's great when the Brazilian government is going to invest in a high speed link between Rio and SP, considering the very busy traffic between both cities. And in the long run, it's going to be a better solution than bus lines. It's good to see that 'developing' countries can find the money to invest in high speed rail these days!
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Old March 12th, 2008, 03:47 AM   #25
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The Sao Paulo - Rio corridor may be one of the most fascinating transportation challenges in the world.

Very densely populated!
High mountain ranges with very deep valleys which have steep sides!
A desnse road network which has only a few limited access highways!
Airports which cannot expanded because of water of development!

This may be one of the few corridors where a 400km HSL in tunnels and on viaducts may infact be the most economic transportation solution
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Old March 15th, 2008, 05:48 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by city_thing View Post
The train would run mostly underground? Is the area between the two cities dense enough to need that?
It's because of this:



The picture is actually from Paraná, but the area between São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro is pretty much like that. And so is the area between either São Paulo or Rio and Belo Horizonte, the planned extension cited in the first article.
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Old March 15th, 2008, 06:51 AM   #27
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Is São Paulo state, it's called Sea's moutain range, or Serra do Mar in portuguese. This moutain range is between São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro cities.

The HSR São Paulo-Rio de Janeiro will cross a region called Paraíba's valley (Vale do Paraíba), just after Sea's mountain range. The name of this valley is due to a river called Paraíba do Sul.

It's because it that it will have lots of undergroung sections.
And that region, I think, has more than 30 million inhabitants.
21.6 mi in metropolitan regions of São Paulo Campinas and Santos (SP state)
9.5 mi in metropolitan region of Rio de Janeiro (RJ state)

Macgr
nice picture, the area between São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro is like that.
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Old March 16th, 2008, 12:44 PM   #28
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With so many people in these areas -- not just in SP and RJ cities but also in other cities like Santos, São José dos Campos, etc., as well as all the countless tourists, businessmen, other people from elsewhere in the country that have to get between SP and RJ -- this really is one of the most obvious HSR lines in the world, I think. I just wish it were to be done before the World Cup...
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Old March 16th, 2008, 04:24 PM   #29
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I just wish it were to be done before the World Cup...
It will probably be ready by 2250.

Or not.
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Old April 14th, 2008, 03:07 AM   #30
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Please! I'm sure it will be ready for the world cup.
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Old April 14th, 2008, 01:14 PM   #31
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Millions of Brazilians can't afford proper food, health care and education. To divert government funding into building HSR for wealthy people who could just as well use the plane but would for whatever reason prefer to take the train is nothing short of criminal.
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Old April 14th, 2008, 06:26 PM   #32
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Millions of Brazilians can't afford proper food, health care and education. To divert government funding into building HSR for wealthy people who could just as well use the plane but would for whatever reason prefer to take the train is nothing short of criminal.
Thinking like that, you might as well not build anything in any country. This project would create lots of cash to pump back into the economy for distribution for all the social classes it effects.......from the builders to the users.
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Old April 15th, 2008, 09:15 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywalk View Post
Millions of Brazilians can't afford proper food, health care and education. To divert government funding into building HSR for wealthy people who could just as well use the plane but would for whatever reason prefer to take the train is nothing short of criminal.

just like americans, chinese...
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Old April 15th, 2008, 02:00 PM   #34
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Let me dismantle this completely lunatic argumentation:

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Originally Posted by Skywalk View Post
High speed rail is very expensive to build, especially in mountaineous terrain like between Sao Paulo and Rio. But even worse, it also has very high maintenance costs which cause ticket prices very high. High speed rail travel can easily be more expensive than even air travel.
- The CURRENT highway between São Paulo and Rio is 380km long ...
- a BUS (usualy limited to 100km/h in Europe) would need 4h to make the trip
- specialy and purposedly built buses (lets say they could make buses that safely travel at 160/200km/h) would be very expensive and the highway would need to be specialy modified for them to run (highways are usualy 120km/h)
- at 120km/h it would take 3h30 BETWEEN local trafic slows them in BOTH ends ...
- you get 10/20km of "urban" highway at both ends of the road

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I think, it would be much better just to build a road suitable for high speeds, similar to the German Autobahn, and then run high speed buses on it, with speeds of about 200 kph. With such speeds these buses would easily cover the 400 km distance in just a bit more than 2 hours.
Highways in Germany are not PURPOSEDLY built for high speeds ... much less for BUS high speeds ... they just didn't impose a limit in LARGE STRAIGHT sections.

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Unlike railways, buses and roads are cheap, both to build and to maintain. Unlike railway trains, vehicles with rubber tires can climb slopes of 8% or even more without problems. The dedicated high speed road should have concrete surface, like a German Autobahn, but unlike it, it should have superelevation in curves, up to 12%. This would allow curves to be built much sharper, allowing to go around hills instead of going through them with a tunnel. All this would allow the high speed road to be built much, much cheaper in this mountaneous terrain than a railway. As was stated in the original post, a railway would have to go mostly underground in this terrain.
A section of highway cost THE SAME as a section of HSL ... with the HSL actualy being LESS COSTLY due to it having a SMALLER footpath (double track HSL is just 14m wide while a 3+3 jighway would be 30m or even wider (?)) ... and you can DOUBLE every piece of infraestructure cost on a highway when comparing to a HSL .. .just think as a Highway as 2 HSL put side by side but without the rails or overhead wires.


Quote:
The high speed road should be run on a schedule, like a railway. This would rule out any delays because of congestion. The road and the vehicles running on it should be equipped with a train control system just like those for railways, so that vehicles will always keep safety distance and always maintain the appropriate speed for the section of the road which they are on.

If buses would run with a headway of 1 minute and each bus would seat 40 passengers, this would allow for plenty capacity, 2400 passengers per hour and direction, as much as three double-set ICE3 trainsets. Maybe it would be possible to run vehicles even closer, with a headway of just 30 seconds, thus further increasing capacity.
- Buses on a 1 minute headway would allow for 2/3h travel time (considering that they would be fast enough
- maiby one could make some inprovements to on-bus catering and deal with cleaning and sanitary facilities ...
- 3 round trips a day ???
- would need some 6x60=360 are needed buses just to make the BASIC schedule ... so lets get some 400 of them (just for starts)
- each and every one of them would get to the 1.000.000km mark in 416 days (considering that each would need to run SP-Rio-SP 3x a day)
- tire (50/100k replacements), fuel (rising prices), etc
- consider average maintenance mileage rising prices and other factors
at 1M km each would be turn into a piece of crap (as in not suitable for high speeds anymore) and would probably need replacement (could be relocated to another corridor ?)
- you need 400x4 BUS drivers ... 24/7 cleaning services able to service/clean 120 buses per hour ... after each trip every bus would probably need preventive maintenance chechups ... etc


Do you even begin to see what you ar getting yourself into with this ???

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If not all timetable paths are required for buses, then these could be sold to passenger cars, too, provided they are capable of maintaining the required speeds and equipped with the "trainside" part of the train control system. Most probably some wealthy people would want to use this high speed road, too, and pay dearly for it, thus increasing profitability of the road.
Profitability ???? so you mean that they would have to RUN at a marginal cost (380km at 50/60$ or less) and PAY to use the road ???

Quote:
The high speed buses could run on ordinary roads, too, albeit with normal speed, thus allowing them to reach every location in both cities or in their vicinities. With many stations for departure and arrival, spread all over both cities, much more people would find themselves living close to one of them. The buses would link many station pairs directly, without requiring passengers to change to transit at the start or end their journey, without additional costs for infrastructure.
Isn't that what LOCAL buses do today ???? EVEN AS WE SPEAK ???


On the other hand ... just looking up the São Paulo-Rio de Janeiro corridor in Google Earth I can tell you this:

- São Paulo is located on a plateau some 750m above sea level
- the current S.Paulo-Rio runs in a roughly straight line from SãoPaulo up to Volta Redonda
- in the suburbia from SP until São Jose dos Campos (70km out of SP) we get two railways
- SJCampos-VoltaRedonda are about 180km apart from each other ... all along the way we get cities at 10/15km distances from each other
- from VoltaRedonda to Nova Iguaçu we get 70km of suburbia
- add 10/20km of URBAN rail inside both SP and RdeJ

So we get 400km of EXISTING railways we can use to upgrade services in a completely developed corridor .. you don't even need to built a PURE HSL ... just 250km/h "mixed" traffic railway would make miracles over there ....

On the other hand ... we could get a 100% new railway ... near the coast we get to see a VERY HIGH SPEED train passing by over there in the middle of the hills ... very sparsely populated area in fact.

I for myself would like to see both railway lines built ... but having to choose I'd get the upgrade package.

Les see:

- 5 minute interval (each 15 minutes a direct , a semi-fast and a stoping train?)
- 400 pass per train (or even 600? or 1200/1500 in doubles/doubledecker?) = 1600-4800 (direct seats SP-Rio) or some 4800-18000 (total passengers) per HOUR
- oh ... I forgot ... IN EACH DIRECTION.
- trains last for 15/30 years

- 100km/h we get 4h travel time = no show
- 160km/h we get 2h30 travel time = usefull but not that great
- 200/220km/h we get 2h travel time = usefull
- 250km/h we get 1h30/h45 travel time = the sweetspot
- 300km/h we get 1h20/1h30 travel time
- 350km/h we get 1h10/1h20 travel time

I would settle for 300km/h trains running on full speed at dedicated tracks and at 160/200/220/250 km/h where they entered urban areas or used "mixed" traffic corridors (freight would also get some beneficts from the HSL)

As for the route itself I would go (Starting from Rio):

Rio-NovaIguaçu-Japeri-Barra do Perai = a new direct exit to S.Paulo and Belo Horizonte
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Old April 18th, 2008, 03:49 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywalk View Post
Millions of Brazilians can't afford proper food, health care and education. To divert government funding into building HSR for wealthy people who could just as well use the plane but would for whatever reason prefer to take the train is nothing short of criminal.

dont talk about things you dont know, SP-Rio air traffic is one of the busiest on planet, same for road traffic...a rail link is essential for this 2 huge cities.

I didnt know all north americans could afford proper health care... lol Can all chinese afford food? What about education...most countries, even developed nations dont have a proper public education system...

Maybe you dont know but Brazil is not a "big jungle", the goverment needs to improve the infraestructure to develope the country.
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Old April 21st, 2008, 01:48 AM   #36
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hahaha, get ready beacause if this project continues, you will have to deal with millions of people like that...

GO Brazil!!!!!
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Old May 14th, 2008, 08:37 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
On the other hand ... just looking up the São Paulo-Rio de Janeiro corridor in Google Earth I can tell you this:

- São Paulo is located on a plateau some 750m above sea level
- the current S.Paulo-Rio runs in a roughly straight line from SãoPaulo up to Volta Redonda
- in the suburbia from SP until São Jose dos Campos (70km out of SP) we get two railways
- SJCampos-VoltaRedonda are about 180km apart from each other ... all along the way we get cities at 10/15km distances from each other
- from VoltaRedonda to Nova Iguaçu we get 70km of suburbia
- add 10/20km of URBAN rail inside both SP and RdeJ
These two railways (Today CPTM's lines 11 and 12) has a headway of 6 and 8 minutes in rush hour. And there is a purpose from CPTM (metropolitan train operator) to reduce these headways to 3 and 4 minutes, respectively. Today, freight trains runs just in line 12 in non-rush hours, and sometimes it brings some damages to metropolitan trains. So, this line won't be shared with other services, except line 13 (under project). Line 11, too.

PS: these lines don't reach São José dos Campos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
So we get 400km of EXISTING railways we can use to upgrade services in a completely developed corridor .. you don't even need to built a PURE HSL ... just 250km/h "mixed" traffic railway would make miracles over there ....

On the other hand ... we could get a 100% new railway ... near the coast we get to see a VERY HIGH SPEED train passing by over there in the middle of the hills ... very sparsely populated area in fact.

I for myself would like to see both railway lines built ... but having to choose I'd get the upgrade package.

Les see:

- 5 minute interval (each 15 minutes a direct , a semi-fast and a stoping train?)
- 400 pass per train (or even 600? or 1200/1500 in doubles/doubledecker?) = 1600-4800 (direct seats SP-Rio) or some 4800-18000 (total passengers) per HOUR
- oh ... I forgot ... IN EACH DIRECTION.
- trains last for 15/30 years

- 100km/h we get 4h travel time = no show
- 160km/h we get 2h30 travel time = usefull but not that great
- 200/220km/h we get 2h travel time = usefull
- 250km/h we get 1h30/h45 travel time = the sweetspot
- 300km/h we get 1h20/1h30 travel time
- 350km/h we get 1h10/1h20 travel time

I would settle for 300km/h trains running on full speed at dedicated tracks and at 160/200/220/250 km/h where they entered urban areas or used "mixed" traffic corridors (freight would also get some beneficts from the HSL)

As for the route itself I would go (Starting from Rio):

Rio-Nova Iguaçu-Japeri-Barra do Pirai = a new direct exit to S.Paulo and Belo Horizonte
Good analysis, sotavento
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Old May 29th, 2008, 08:30 AM   #38
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Brazil eyes 2-phase high speed train tender in Feb

RIO DE JANEIRO, May 27 (Reuters) - The Brazilian government plans to hold separate tenders next February for foreign and local companies to present offers for a $9 billion high-speed railway project between Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo.

Cabinet Chief Dilma Rousseff said on Tuesday during a presentation on infrastructure that the winners of the separate phases would later be joined into one group that would effectively build the railroad.

"Those who win, be it a Japanese, Korean or French consortium, will qualify on its side, and we'll (Brazilian side) have a consortium formed on our side. The two consortia that win will merge to create a special purpose entity," Rousseff said.

The proposed railway is to link the international airports of Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo, as well as a cargo airport in the city of Campinas in Sao Paulo state.

Authorities have been trying to reduce traffic at crowded urban airports, especially Sao Paulo's local Congonhas airport, after a TAM airlines Airbus overshot the runway in Congonhas last July, killing a total of 199 people.

Previously, government estimates had put the cost of the project at $11 billion. It was not immediately clear why the expected costs have come down.

Rousseff has recently visited Japan and South Korea to present the project there.

In neighboring Argentina, France's Alstom SA was given a contract to build a $1.5 billion high-speed railway -- the country's first, earlier this year.

Rousseff also said the government was negotiating with the United States a partnership agreement for a railroad project that would link the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. It would link Brazil's Paranagua port with Chile's Mejillones.

The Brazilian portion of the link would be between Paranagua in southern Parana state and Maracaju in Mato Grosso do Sul not far from the border with Paraguay.

Its estimated cost is 800 million reais ($480 million). The railroad would help to transport grains from central-western Brazil, Rousseff said, adding that the U.S. participation was likely to be confined to financing. (Reporting by Rodrigo Gaier, writing by Andrei Khalip; Editing by Braden Reddall)
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Old May 31st, 2008, 08:16 PM   #39
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250 mile high speed underground railroad...which means it can go probably as fast it is technically possible to go. Very sweet. Other regions should wake up to underground rail, especially in large urban corridors. Imagine a maglev train between Boston and Washington DC or between Raleigh to Atlanta that goes underground. It can avoid the eminent domain situations that certainly arise and be able to hit that 400+ mile per hour threshold. Its worth the cost.
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Old June 1st, 2008, 03:07 PM   #40
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It will only be done where it's necessary - there's no other option in mountainous regions - the Basque Y in Spain is a perfect example.
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