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Old June 2nd, 2008, 12:02 PM   #41
oberoende
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Vactrain option

In my opinion a high speed railway should not be constructed between Sao Paolo and Rio, a vactrain (a maglev tunnel with artificial vacuum) is a better option.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vactrain

A vactrain is suitable in the Sao Paolo - Rio corridor for the following reasons:
It is not an earthquake zone.
The distance is too great to allow commuting by state of the art HSR but is possible with a Vactrain.
There are no large intermediate cities.
Existing railways are slow.
The populations and economic potentials of the cities are large enough to bear the investment costs.
There is very limited potential to extend HSR to other destinations in existing rail corridors (as France and most other nations except Japan do).
Both cities have extensive public transportation networks with well defined centres.
The geology requires a large amount of tunneling for HSR. The extra cost for a tunnel the whole way is thus not so large.
Brazil does not have a HSR industry. This is an opportunity to develop unique technology that can be exported to other countries in future.
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Old June 2nd, 2008, 12:33 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oberoende View Post
In my opinion a high speed railway should not be constructed between Sao Paolo and Rio, a vactrain (a maglev tunnel with artificial vacuum) is a better option.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vactrain

A vactrain is suitable in the Sao Paolo - Rio corridor for the following reasons:
It is not an earthquake zone.
The distance is too great to allow commuting by state of the art HSR but is possible with a Vactrain.
There are no large intermediate cities.
Existing railways are slow.
The populations and economic potentials of the cities are large enough to bear the investment costs.
There is very limited potential to extend HSR to other destinations in existing rail corridors (as France and most other nations except Japan do).
Both cities have extensive public transportation networks with well defined centres.
The geology requires a large amount of tunneling for HSR. The extra cost for a tunnel the whole way is thus not so large.
Brazil does not have a HSR industry. This is an opportunity to develop unique technology that can be exported to other countries in future.
A huge problem is the time it takes before this technology become stable and afordable. I strongly doubt before year 2050.
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Old June 2nd, 2008, 04:06 PM   #43
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Oberoende - Vactrain doesn't exist so there is no one to build it even if the government wanted to use an expensive and untested technology. Communting is not currently an issue - the cities take so long to get between at the moment that there is not much of a culture of commuting between the two, and besides it will take less than an hour at contemporary HSR speeds - I don't get where your coming from. And I don't understand how you can think a fictional technology is in the least bit relevent to real life. You may as well say there shouldn't be HSR, they should instead invest in a giant teleportation machine or make motorways in the sky for use with hover cars.
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Old June 6th, 2008, 03:53 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
Oberoende - Vactrain doesn't exist so there is no one to build it even if the government wanted to use an expensive and untested technology. Communting is not currently an issue - the cities take so long to get between at the moment that there is not much of a culture of commuting between the two, and besides it will take less than an hour at contemporary HSR speeds - I don't get where your coming from. And I don't understand how you can think a fictional technology is in the least bit relevent to real life. You may as well say there shouldn't be HSR, they should instead invest in a giant teleportation machine or make motorways in the sky for use with hover cars.
To say that the Vactrain technology does not exist is somewhat incorrect. While no one so far has used the technologies together, the individual technologies already exist:
Tunnel-building is a proven technology that HSR also would require.
Maglev technology is in operation in a few places around the world.
The technology to create and sustain a vacuum exists and is not particularly advanced.
Vehicles that operate in a vacuum is also a well-proven technology.

Exactly what technology is fictional?

The straight line distance between Sao Paolo and Rio is 360 km. Given the terrain and coastline, it seems likely that a HSR between the cities would be at least 400 km long. State of the art HSR have an average speed no greater than 265 km/h. Therefore it is unrealistic to expect HSR travel times shorter than 90 minutes. 90 minutes city centre to city centre is certainly an impressive achievement and huge improvement on today, but too long for commuting.

You say that commuting is not an issue as there is no culture of commuting between the two cities today because it takes too long. I find this statement illogical and irrelevant. There is plenty of evidence from around the world that if people are provided opportunities to commute (a travel time shorter than one hour and not prohibitively expensive) then people will start to commute, regardless of the preexisting "culture".

I would suggest that the government in its tender includes two alternatives, either a typical HSR or a Vactrain. Who knows, some company or consortium might be interested. You never know until you try.
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Old June 6th, 2008, 10:19 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oberoende View Post
To say that the Vactrain technology does not exist is somewhat incorrect. While no one so far has used the technologies together, the individual technologies already exist:
Tunnel-building is a proven technology that HSR also would require.
Maglev technology is in operation in a few places around the world.
The technology to create and sustain a vacuum exists and is not particularly advanced.
Vehicles that operate in a vacuum is also a well-proven technology.

Exactly what technology is fictional?
The vactrain is fictional. We have all the technology we need to build Nuclear Fusion power plants, but they don't exist yet, so they are fictional. We have the technology to build a space statino around Mars, but it doesn't exist so it is fictinoal.


Quote:
Therefore it is unrealistic to expect HSR travel times shorter than 90 minutes. 90 minutes city centre to city centre is certainly an impressive achievement and huge improvement on today, but too long for commuting.
I think you're slightly ioverstating the distance and 90 minutes is not too long for a commute - thats about how long it is to commute from my city to London and thousands do it everyday.

Quote:
You say that commuting is not an issue as there is no culture of commuting between the two cities today because it takes too long. I find this statement illogical and irrelevant. There is plenty of evidence from around the world that if people are provided opportunities to commute (a travel time shorter than one hour and not prohibitively expensive) then people will start to commute, regardless of the preexisting "culture".
Using you're own premises - 1) need vactrain as it may allow commuting, 2) we would like to encourage commuting so we need vatrain. This is circular logic and is not a basis for an argument. If a study (that includes cost-to-benfits calculations and capital investment costs, potential passenger movements etc etc) was made of possible commuting trends to back it up then maybe, but until then there is nothing to back up the concept.
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Old June 12th, 2008, 11:16 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
The vactrain is fictional. We have all the technology we need to build Nuclear Fusion power plants, but they don't exist yet, so they are fictional. We have the technology to build a space statino around Mars, but it doesn't exist so it is fictinoal.

I think you're slightly ioverstating the distance and 90 minutes is not too long for a commute - thats about how long it is to commute from my city to London and thousands do it everyday.

Using you're [sic] own premises - 1) need vactrain as it may allow commuting, 2) we would like to encourage commuting so we need vatrain. This is circular logic and is not a basis for an argument. If a study (that includes cost-to-benfits calculations and capital investment costs, potential passenger movements etc etc) was made of possible commuting trends to back it up then maybe, but until then there is nothing to back up the concept.
I do not dispute that the vactrain is fictional. You said that the technology is fictional, which I do dispute.

What distance and what travel times do you anticipate for a standard HSR? Brighton to London seems to take 50-70 minutes according to nationalrail.co.uk, are you including trips to and from the stations in your 90 minutes? If so, then you must do the same for Sao Paolo and Rio, which makes door-to-door times greater than 2 hours in that corridor. At 120+ minutes, there would still be the occasional hardy commuter, but not of any economic significance.

I have not argued in favour of commuting, it is merely a source of revenue. There is no circular logic in my argument.

The commuting aspect is but one part of my argument that the vactrain is a better investment in Sao Paolo-Rio and a strong one. I repeat: "There is plenty of evidence from around the world that if people are provided opportunities to commute (a travel time shorter than one hour and not prohibitively expensive) then people will start to commute." This happens regardless of what I want, it is simply how people function, and it also gives a possibility for an enterprising corporation to make money.
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Old June 12th, 2008, 08:47 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oberoende View Post
I do not dispute that the vactrain is fictional. You said that the technology is fictional, which I do dispute.
The technology exists but it is not in Vactrain form - I am not incorrect when I say that such existing technology employed in a vactrain would be unproven. I feel you are being extremely obtuse about this point - it is quite obvious - if I buy a rolls royce jet and an airbus wing and a load of electronics from Siemens and everything else I'll need does not mean I'll have a plane that will be proven in service.

Quote:
What distance and what travel times do you anticipate for a standard HSR? Brighton to London seems to take 50-70 minutes according to nationalrail.co.uk, are you including trips to and from the stations in your 90 minutes? If so, then you must do the same for Sao Paolo and Rio, which makes door-to-door times greater than 2 hours in that corridor. At 120+ minutes, there would still be the occasional hardy commuter, but not of any economic significance.
If you check rush hour the journey times are longer, between 70 and 85 minutes, over 90 if you travel to Blackfriars or City Thameslink. Slightly less than I thought but not enough to make a significant impact on my point, considering thousands also commute from my neighbouring towns of Hove, Worthing, Newhaven and Eastbourne.

Quote:
I have not argued in favour of commuting, it is merely a source of revenue. There is no circular logic in my argument.
I said it was not currently an issue, which it isn't. You're refutation of that turned circular as you appeared to say that I was wrong in saying that commuting isn't currently an issue because with Vactrain you could have commuting - but you need Vactrain to exist for the commuting to exist to require the Vactrain. You also sidestepped my point that 90 minutes is OK for commuting, I accept it isn't that great - more people commute to London from my home town of Sevenoaks with it's 20,000 people than do from Brighton with it's 250,000 as the journey time is less than half that of here. But it's possible nonetheless.

Quote:
The commuting aspect is but one part of my argument that the vactrain is a better investment in Sao Paolo-Rio and a strong one. I repeat: "There is plenty of evidence from around the world that if people are provided opportunities to commute (a travel time shorter than one hour and not prohibitively expensive) then people will start to commute." This happens regardless of what I want, it is simply how people function, and it also gives a possibility for an enterprising corporation to make money.
You would need to convince the financiers that this is worth it - I have pointed out where the flaw is - unproven technology - and you must know how hard it is to convince politicians that a non-existing problem such as a requirement for commuting that doesn't currently exists requires funding, no matter how sensible the concept looks on paper.
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Old September 11th, 2008, 12:07 PM   #48
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Brazil to build high speed train line
9 September 2008

SAO PAULO, Brazil (AP) - Brazil's Transportation Ministry says it hopes to have a high-speed train operating in time for the 2014 Wold Cup.

Ministry's transportation policy director Marcelo Perrupato says the new train line is expected to cost some US$15 billion and will link the cities of Sao Paulo, Rio de Janeiro and Campinas.

Perrupato said on Tuesday that the project will be put out to bid in March and construction should begin by early 2010 or sooner.

He says the technology will most likely be provided by companies from France, Japan, Korea or Germany that will form consortiums with Brazilian engineering firms. The only two companies he mentioned were Frances Alstom SA and Germany's Siemens AG.
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Old September 12th, 2008, 09:29 PM   #49
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50 bucks its not done before 2015
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Old May 8th, 2009, 01:00 AM   #50
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BRAZIL | High Speed Rail

Does anybody know something about this new line from Rio to Sao Paulo?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n31561059/

Some say that it is gonna be a maglev.
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Old May 8th, 2009, 01:23 AM   #51
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I recall seeing a news clip stating that the Brazillian president came to Japan and went to the JR Maglev experiment facility in Yamanashi and went through an inspection tour at various Tokaido shinkansen facilities last year.

A Japanese consortium will most likely post a tender to the project.
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Old February 1st, 2010, 03:15 AM   #52
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The bullet train


One of the main transportation projects for the World Cup 2014 is the building of a bullet train linking São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro, the two largest Brazilian cities. In Portuguese, the train is called Trem de Alta Velocidade (High Speed Train), or TAV; visit the official site of the High Speed Train.

The official TAV site still informs (wth endorsement of the Federal Government) that operations should start before 2014; however, there are strong doubts about that. There are several obstacles to the project, including technical, financial, political and environmental.

In 2007, it was estimated that the bidding process would be finished by 2008, and the trains would be running after seven years; today, it is growing stronger the opinion that the train won’t be ready before 2015.

The Government is looking for private partners to build the railway. On December 7th 2009, the federal Government announced the criteria to be used to select the partners; 70% of the scoring of bidders will be related to the necessity of official fundings (the smaller the necessity, the higher the score), and 30% will be related to the price of ticket to be charged from passengers (the cheaper the ticket, the higher the score).

Below, more information about the project


The map above shows the route of the railways (click the map to enlarge). Stations in red are already confirmed in the project, stations in green are still under analysis.

One line would connect Campinas (one the largest cities in the State of São Paulo) and the airport of Viracopos (international airport) to the city of São Paulo. The other line would connect São Paulo to Rio de Janeiro, with intermediary stations in the airport of Guarulhos, São José dos Campos and Volta Redonda.



Trains will be 200 meters long. Estimated maximum speed is 300 km/h. Estimated travel times, leaving from Rio, are: to Volta Redonda, 34min; to São José dos Campos, 1h17min; to São Paulo, 1h33min; to Campinas, 2h08min. Currently, flying from São Paulo Rio takes about 1h50min, and driving takes about 5 hours.

There will be two categories of services: Express (between Campinas, São Paulo and Rio) and Regional (intermediary cities). Express trains would fit 458 people, in two classes; regional trains will fit 600 people, in one class.

Estimated prices for a ticket São Paulo – Rio are: R$ 150, economic class, off peak trips; R$ 200, economic class, peak time trips; R$ 250, executive class, off peak; R$ 325, executive class, peak time. Currently, a flight costs between R$ 180 (off peak) and R$ 400 (peak). Current exchange rate is US$ 1 = R$ 1.70.
About 61% of railways will run on surface, 21% across bridges and 18% underground.

Estimated costs total R$ 34.6 billion (about US$ 20 billion). Most of the costs correspond to civil woks; indemnifications will take 11%; systems and equipments will take 10%, and the trains themselves will take 8%.
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Old February 1st, 2010, 03:22 AM   #53
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RIO - São Paulo HIGH-SPEED RAIL


The Rio-São Paulo High Speed rail (Portuguese: Trem de Alta Velocidade Rio-São Paulo; Abbreviation: TAV RJ-SP) is a high-speed rail project connecting Brazil's two largest metropolises: São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro. The high-speed line is expected to be operational by 2014, in time for the 20th FIFA World Cup to be held in Brazil, at a cost of $9 billion.




Characteristics
Length: 518 kilometres (322 mi)
Estimated cost: US$9 billion
Operational line speed: 280 km/h
Designed line speed: 350 km/h
Time between Rio-São Paulo: 80 minutes (express) and 101 minutes (with stops in São José dos Campos, Resende and Galeão)
Time between São Paulo-Campinas: 24 minutes (express) and 28 minutes (with a stop in Viracopos)
Estimated passengers: 33 million/year
Estimated ticket price: US$60

Project history
The original project, named Expresso Bandeirantes, was to build a high-speed rail line between São Paulo and Campinas. The project was cancelled in 2007 because the Brazilian government concluded that it was more viable to connect Campinas, São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro in a single line with an extension of 518 kilometres (322 mi).



São Paulo-Campinas Route

Terminal Multimodal de Campinas, in Campinas.The proposed bullet train project has been presented to the city by Helio de Oliveira Santos (PDT), mayor of Campinas, in Brasília, in full by the Japanese consortium that will build the railway in 5 years (ready for the World Cup in 2014). Campinas is ahead in the construction because it is the first city to pave the way for the train by completing its new Multimodal Passenger Terminal in June 2008. However, the tender procedures would wait until February 2009, where over 28 major world manufacturers participated in a contest for related projects. The Japanese consortium presented its proposal modelling on the Shinkansen, which carried 340 million passengers the previous year on 2100 km of trackage at home. It is composed of the Japanese companies Mitsui, Mitsubishi, Kawasaki and Toshiba. The consortium has already submitted a preliminary proposal in Brasilia and Sao Paulo and Rio for interested entrepreneurs.


Terminal Multimodal de Campinas, in Campinas

The preliminary proposal provides for five different types of transactions in which the trains travel at a speed up to 320 km/h. Three lines expressed and two stops, with three of them come in Campinas, with two stopping in Viracopos. Each of these five operations on every hour, with up to three thousand passengers. However, the competition for the building includes manufacturers from Spain, South Korea, Italy, France, Germany, and the Japanese bid. All these have spoken in public hearing on the Traffic and Transport Committee of the Chamber of Deputies, available to consort and enter the auction scheduled for February, as announcement by the President, Luis Inacio Lula da Silva at the end of April, in Campinas


Rio-São Paulo Route

Estação Central do Brasil, in Rio de Janeiro.The first stretch of high-speed train line in Brazil will be between its main cities of Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo. A distance of 412 kms between the two city terminals: Campo de Marte in Sao Paulo and Station Central do Brasil in Rio de Janeiro will be covered in one hour and 25 minutes at a maximum speed of 360 km / h.

It is tentatively planned that the trains will have a capacity of 855 passengers at a headway of 15 minutes. The fare will be around R$150 to R$250 per passenger in the off-peak hours. There are several projects presented to the Brazilian government. One is the Italian design company's Italplan Engineering Environment & Transport Srl, which presented that the high-speed train is estimated to start operating in 2015. If this target date is met it will serve as a quick and vital link to Sao Paulo in time for the 2016 Summer Olympics.



Other connecting lines*
On 13 May 2008, it was reported that a high speed line between the cities of Belo Horizonte and Curitiba would be included in the National Transport Plan.[8] It would link Belo Horizonte, Divinópolis, Varginha and Pocos de Caldas (all in the state of Minas Gerais); Campinas, São Paulo, Sorocaba, Itapetininga and Apiaí (all in the state of São Paulo); and Curitiba (in the state of Paraná). The line would be around 1150 kilometres long, about twice the length of the line between Rio de Janeiro and Campinas. The resultant network, centred on São Paulo, would serve an area containing more than half of Brazil's economic output and population. The line is scheduled to be built after the completion of the line between Rio de Janeiro, São Paulo, and Campinas.

Last edited by LFellipe; February 1st, 2010 at 09:15 PM.
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Old February 1st, 2010, 03:53 AM   #54
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Yeah.. I have never been in Brasil by connecting two largest cities with high speed rail is great idea. However it is going slow I guess, no winner yet?
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Old February 1st, 2010, 09:16 AM   #55
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It's under environmental assessment.
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Old February 1st, 2010, 07:08 PM   #56
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Its a good idea...but will it really happen? Not in the next 40 years anyway...
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Old February 1st, 2010, 07:15 PM   #57
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Why not?
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Old February 1st, 2010, 08:39 PM   #58
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Hopefully it will be built.
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Old February 1st, 2010, 09:40 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poshbakerloo View Post
Its a good idea...but will it really happen? Not in the next 40 years anyway...
its completion is estimated for 2014, but has not yet been formalized out paper, well, is expected to be ready for 2015, when a year later will happen the Olympics Rio2016... but I think Brazil is on a huge stage of development and this high-speed train will be completed fast!

We really did this Bullet Train, São Paulo has more than 20,000,000 people in all metro area, and Rio has about 12,000,000

Hope in future (not so far) it links Belo Horizonte (5,500,000) and Curitiba (3,200,000 ppl) Other very large capitals.

Cities that will be linked by High-Speed Rail

São Paulo:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=642866

Rio de Janeiro
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=899030

Curitiba:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=867016

Belo Horizonte:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=434788
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Old February 1st, 2010, 09:51 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LFellipe View Post
its completion is estimated for 2014, but has not yet been formalized out paper, well, is expected to be ready for 2015, when a year later will happen the Olympics Rio2016... but I think Brazil is on a huge stage of development and this high-speed train will be completed fast!
But currently its just an idea...it will take like 2years to formally make a plan and get things organised, then 10 years to build etc But before all that money and lots of it is needed...
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