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Old February 1st, 2010, 10:44 PM   #61
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China did it relatively fast. Not all countries in this world are so bureaucratized as EU countries.
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Old February 2nd, 2010, 12:45 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
China did it relatively fast. Not all countries in this world are so bureaucratized as EU countries.
I don't know the level of bureaucracy in EU countries, but I can guarantee that Brazil is very bureaucratized -- as much as it gets. Even though I'm hoping for this HSL to be built soon, I'll just believe when I they actually start building it.
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Old February 2nd, 2010, 06:31 AM   #63
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"Bureaucracies" can be effective if political and power fights are in check.

If Brazil's leaders are well informed of how a proper high speed rail system should be financed, planned and built, then anything is possible

Last edited by zaphod; February 2nd, 2010 at 07:40 PM.
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Old February 2nd, 2010, 10:59 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StreetView View Post
I don't know the level of bureaucracy in EU countries, but I can guarantee that Brazil is very bureaucratized -- as much as it gets. Even though I'm hoping for this HSL to be built soon, I'll just believe when I they actually start building it.
When you have not only the World Cup, but the Summer Olympics as well, breathing down your neck - you find the capacity to build things quickly.

Rio and Sao Paolo are massive cities, they can easily support this line.
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Old February 2nd, 2010, 11:27 AM   #65
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Quote:
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China did it relatively fast. Not all countries in this world are so bureaucratized as EU countries.
The problem isn't so much bureaucracy. Most of the EU countries are a lot less bureaucratic than most Latin American countries.

One reason why building new infrastructure in the China doesn't take as long as in the EU have to do with existing infrastructure. China is busy bootstrapping itself out of the middle ages at a fascinating speed. They don't have a lot of deadwood to take in to account, and they are growing like mad. They can take advantage of lots of labor too. They can build a new high speed railway terminal 70 km outside of the city center in the knowledge that in ten years the city centre will be where the railway terminal is.
Europe isn't growing any more. We're not building new infrastructure, we're upgrading existing infrastructure, and that is a lot more complex and time consuming.

In the 19th century a tramway line was build from Zürich to the western suburbs in a year. Now the same takes five years, however the actual track laying itself only takes a year or so, and it is far better track than was laid in the 19th century. Most of the time nowadays goes towards moving existing infrastructure out of the way. There is an amazing aount of cables ducts and pipes in the underground of a modern city, and any major infrastructure project, being it an above ground light rail line, or an underground metro, nowadays needs to take those in to account. So an substantial amount of time and effort goes in to moving old stuff around, replacing cables and ducts so that they are no longer in the way, or still accessible after the railroad tracks have been laid. The more existing infrastructure there exists, the harder it becomes to add more.

When you start from scratch it's a lot easier. When Europe started building railroads the network expanded at an incredible speed too. The Liverpool and Manchester railway was build in 1830. 20 years later the network was allready quite impressive, as you can see here.
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Old February 2nd, 2010, 12:29 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
China did it relatively fast. Not all countries in this world are so bureaucratized as EU countries.
China is a big exception tho, they do what they want, when they want etc
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Old February 2nd, 2010, 01:11 PM   #67
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China is a big exception tho, they do what they want, when they want etc
I think there are at least three dimensions to this: (1) bureaucracy; (2) political constraints; and (3) sense of urgency. Since Europe is no longer growing there's not much of a sense of urgency. In the United States there are humungus political constraints. I don't think any of these areas are very bureaucratic compared with Latin America.

Of course a country like China has all three going for it: their industrialisation process is one continuous state of urgency; once the Party has decided then all political constraints are gone; and the bureaucrats jump up and down to show how efficient they are.

Brazil has, it seems, a sense of urgency. Let's see how far this will go in helping them overcome political contraints and red tape.
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Old February 2nd, 2010, 01:17 PM   #68
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China did it relatively fast. Not all countries in this world are so bureaucratized as EU countries.
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Old February 2nd, 2010, 02:13 PM   #69
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I don't trade some democracy check-and-balances for fast public works, my democratic values and individual rights are not on the table for totalitarian and violent government action, even if to a "good" purpose.

I preffer more expensive and slow-going projects than a brutal, dictatorial one-party government ruling my country.

As for Brazil, the high-speed train is not expected to be in place for the World Cup. The are between Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro is very, very rugged, the line will follow, for most of it, a relatively narrow and high populated valley and will require 114km of tunnels (although through mostly geologic stable massifs).

The project will be a public-private partnership. A state development bank will underwrite most of the debt (€ 8 bln), privates will come up with the rest and, of course, equity. No guarantees of "no-build" type will be granted.
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Old February 2nd, 2010, 06:28 PM   #70
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I don't trade some democracy check-and-balances for fast public works, my democratic values and individual rights are not on the table for totalitarian and violent government action, even if to a "good" purpose.
Really? In another thread you've been campaigning relentlessly for limits on individual rights in the name of security...
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Old February 2nd, 2010, 06:43 PM   #71
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Quote:
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China did it relatively fast. Not all countries in this world are so bureaucratized as EU countries.
Not as much as Brazil..if you come down here you gonna see EU in another perspective..
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Old February 2nd, 2010, 08:51 PM   #72
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Brazil is still on my list of future visits, but I would never think, that any nation on this world is more bureaucratized than EU.
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Old February 13th, 2010, 09:59 PM   #73
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You don't know what you are exactly saying. You posts could not convince anyone even yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I don't trade some democracy check-and-balances for fast public works, my democratic values and individual rights are not on the table for totalitarian and violent government action, even if to a "good" purpose.

I preffer more expensive and slow-going projects than a brutal, dictatorial one-party government ruling my country.

As for Brazil, the high-speed train is not expected to be in place for the World Cup. The are between Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro is very, very rugged, the line will follow, for most of it, a relatively narrow and high populated valley and will require 114km of tunnels (although through mostly geologic stable massifs).

The project will be a public-private partnership. A state development bank will underwrite most of the debt (€ 8 bln), privates will come up with the rest and, of course, equity. No guarantees of "no-build" type will be granted.
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Old February 14th, 2010, 09:22 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I don't trade some democracy check-and-balances for fast public works, my democratic values and individual rights are not on the table for totalitarian and violent government action, even if to a "good" purpose.

I preffer more expensive and slow-going projects than a brutal, dictatorial one-party government ruling my country.

As for Brazil, the high-speed train is not expected to be in place for the World Cup. The are between Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro is very, very rugged, the line will follow, for most of it, a relatively narrow and high populated valley and will require 114km of tunnels (although through mostly geologic stable massifs).

The project will be a public-private partnership. A state development bank will underwrite most of the debt (€ 8 bln), privates will come up with the rest and, of course, equity. No guarantees of "no-build" type will be granted.
Excuse me , but what is your problem with every Rail topic on this site , i think it will be up by 2014 World Cup, the Brazilian people these days are very progressive. I think Brazil has the power to accomplish almost anything these days. Although i'm a bit skeptical on the Urban slum issue. Its very easy these days to construct through mountains and i think they already have exprince in that area , becuz the have a few highways and major roads criss crossing them.

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Old February 14th, 2010, 04:54 PM   #75
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Guys, I think the project will be completed, as it is with a manageable delay. I just don't think it is feasible to expect a project whose ground break is officially (www.antt.gov.br) expected to happen in late 2010 to be completed, tested and commissioned before July 2014 (e.g., less than 4 years). It will be available, though, for the Olympic games in 2016.
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Old February 14th, 2010, 05:03 PM   #76
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They can build a new high speed railway terminal 70 km outside of the city center in the knowledge that in ten years the city centre will be where the railway terminal is.
Which terminal in China is 70 km outside of the city center?
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Old April 17th, 2010, 02:47 PM   #77
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BRAZIL | High Speed Rail

http://www.max-boegl.de/boeglnet/web...FQs9Zgod22mtMg


on the right, click on the small pic of the maglev in brazil national colours.

Then you can download or watch the video (85mb)
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Old July 12th, 2010, 03:01 PM   #78
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UPDATES

After months in the red tape maze, the project was given an almost-final go-ahead and is due to tender in October.

Without descending into specifics that wouldn't make much sense for foreigners strangers to Brazilian law, the mains practical hurdles of the TAV Brasil ("Trem de Alta Velocidade") were related to the particularities of a new rail project in the country, which has no benchmark (costs variability, environmental assessment, consumer behavior etc.) that could be used to draw a more specific financial framework in term of maximum acceptable fares, public financing required etc.

These controversies led to spirited arguments in an administrative court that oversights public works projects, tenders, bids and contracts. The overall institutional and financial design of Brazil's first high speed rail line now stands like this:

- legal framework will be a Public-Private Partnership

- a public investment and development bank (BNDES) will manage and deliver loans covering up to 70% of its costs. Loans will be due in 30 years and will be interest-subsidized (remember: real interest rates in Brazil stand over 7% and even then they are in their lowest real levels ever). The loan due date could be extended if projected demand fail to meet minimum targets.

- Brazilian federal government will set up a single-purpose public corporation (ETAV) that will be a shareholder of the PPP entity, with a stake up to 30%. This public corporation will be responsible to manage the technology transfer and to develop native capabilities (technology, human resources etc.) to foster a homegrown high-speed rail industry in Brazil. It will not interfere with end-user (passenger) commercial decisions.

- second-class proposed fares will be the major factor considered to choose a proposal and a consortium. Amount of private money invested in the project will be the secondary factor. The final RFT is expected to be released within a month, defining the formula that will be used to choose the tender's winner. First class fares will be unrestricted. Second-class controlled maximum fares are specified as BRL (R$) per kilometer and will be adjusted annually for inflation. Standing passengers will not be allowed.

- there are going to be minimum service frequencies defined in the RFT, and a minimum (likely 55-65%) of seat offer in each train that has to be priced as second class.

- basic project comprises the following stations (in sequence): Campinas downtown, Viracopos Intl. Airport, São Paulo downtown, Guarulhos Intl. Airport, São José dos Campos, Barra Mansa/Volta Redonda, Rio de Janeiro. One additional station between São José dos Campos and Volta Redonda will have to be built. The operator is free to build additional stations at its own risk, provided it obtains specific environmental license for those.

- there is going to be at least an "express" non-stop service from São Paulo to Rio de Janeiro and "local" services calling at all stations. Operator is free to offer additional services, provided the minimum share of second-class seats selling below or at the controlled fare ceiling is respected.

- although the operator is free to design alternative offers like monthly passes, fidelity cards and so, there will no contractual obligation for it to offer any pass or frequent-use discount card.

- operator will have freedom to decide final alignment, provided general specifications for speed, radius and urban center crossing are respected.

===========================
The big issues, challenges and controversies

Just to update the international crows, I summarize the current controversies, issues and challenges surrounding the project as from now - taking as given what is already established as I wrote above:

- Brazil doesn't have any viable long distance passenger train service. As such, they are relying on European models to estimate the air/train and even air/train/car modal share on the route that will be served by the TAV Brasil. This is a big question mark for some (on the press, on the industry, on the banks), as there is no previous experience in Brazil, and insofar no deep knowledge of parameters like time-price sensibility of travelers and so. Thus, the whole project was designed aiming at a relatively well-known and studied market: Rio de Janeiro - São Paulo air shuttle, an air route flying dozens of mid-size jets daily, most of them full of executives and businesspeople working and commuting between Brazil's two major population and economic centers,406km apart by highway (the perfect scenario for HSR, as many argue). However, the demand shift on shorter routes like Campinas-São Paulo is unknown, as the train ticket will cost more than car commuting and both cities don't have a viable urban rail transportation network to attract higher-income users.

- the route is quite challenging. Most of it will run through a narrow valley (Paraiba do Sul river), requiring extensive tunneling in urban crosses. Then, there is the Serra das Araras descent (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...61176&t=h&z=12), approaching Rio de Janeiro, where a 800m descent has to be dealt within few kilometers. Because high-speed rail can't cope with high vertical gradients, this pushed the need for an expensive set of tunnels to smooth the descent/ascent. This is a different challenge of the usual setting where a base tunnel is needed to connect two low-lying ends. Tunnels and bridges will comprise 193 of the 510km proposed line.

- some medium cities that will be crossed by the line but not given access to it (e.g., no planned station) are whining about having to deal with an "intrusive" infrastructure already. Some of them are pressing for an even higher extension of tunnels instead of surface construction, even in rural areas.

- a sizable minority of press and urban-related NGOs claim that the TAV Brasil project is out of scope and is not a part of any integrated intercity rail plan (which is almost nonexistent in Brazil). Some claim that the money would be better spent in 3200km of medium speed (140-160 km/h) rails connecting more cities, some claim that money should be invested in metropolitan transportation, some claim the money is better spend in expanding rapidly growing and congesting Brazilian airports and so. Comparisons with "TAV Brasil = 16 new subway lines" appear here and there.
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Last edited by Suburbanist; July 12th, 2010 at 03:06 PM.
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Old July 12th, 2010, 05:33 PM   #79
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Proposed preliminary alignment + station approaches

All pictures taken from the public website www.tavbrasil.gov.br Green stations are "optional" stations not considering in the planning, whose construction will depend upon the contractor if it wants to build them to increase its profits (bearing any marginal cost related to them too).

Overview:


Rio de Janeiro station approach:


Rio de Janeiro Intl. Airport station approach:


Barra Mansa station approach:


São José dos Campos station approach:


Guarulhos-São Paulo Intl. Airport station approach:


São Paulo station approach:


Viracopos-São Paulo Intl. Airport station approach:


Campinas station approach:
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Old July 12th, 2010, 05:34 PM   #80
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Route layout

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