interesting tgv / hsr article

[Boards]

Originally Posted by Salif

Where there's a will there's a way.

What about Glasgow crossrail?

I had crossrail in mind myself, it would be viable as you could route the train into High Street station. The official website for this states a stop at Glasgow Central but I dont see how this is possible as the station is a severe bottleneck already and there is literally no room for expansion - the main problem is the fact that Central is bounded to the south by the Clyde. Queen Street terminus isn't viable either as it is bounded to the north by the Cowlairs tunnel. High Street in my humble opinion would be the only viable location.

[Salif]

After a bit of a look I'm concerned that the ECML Grantham connection adds too many route miles to North East-London trains and could nulify any time savings gained through HSL running. Instead I'd suggest just a MML connection near Leicester and upgrade the MML north of this point for 220km/h running (and electrification of course). Included in this would be a Sheffield by-pass (Rothar Valley line I think it's called). This would have the advantage in that it's a much more direct route, it serves bigger population centres and it gives good reason for giving the MML a much deserved upgrade.

Capacity shouldn't be a problem as I'd envisage cross-country trains being diverted onto the HSL from Leeds-Manchester-Birmingham-Bristol Parkway. Thus freeing up space on the York-Sheffield-Derby-Birmingham line.

[Trainman Dave]

[Salif]

Words would be better in this case Dave.

[Trainman Dave]

Two reactions to your latest map.
1) It shows a new line running from Heathrow south of the SWML to Southhampton. Trying to build that line will bring out every NIMBY in Sussex and Hampshire. The route via Oxford/Newbury/Winchester is mostly farmland and it will have some reactions but nothing like the other route. Drive along A34 and compare it to A31.

2) I have serious disagreement with not connecting the ECML into this system. The southern end of the ECML is alrady congested with Welwyn viaduct as the controling bottleneck. Once the Thameslink is completed there will really major arguments about who is allocated of paths on that segment of the network. Connecting the ECML adds long term flexibility to the network. Time differences between running at high speed on a new line as compared to threading through the congested south end of ECML are unlikely to be significant in my humble opinion.

Much of my original suggestions on this thread were dominated by ideas in item number two.

[Salif]

Originally Posted by Trainman Dave

Two reactions to your latest map.
1) It shows a new line running from Heathrow south of the SWML to Southhampton. Trying to build that line will bring out every NIMBY in Sussex and Hampshire. The route via Oxford/Newbury/Winchester is mostly farmland and it will have some reactions but nothing like the other route. Drive along A34 and compare it to A31.

2) I have serious disagreement with not connecting the ECML into this system. The southern end of the ECML is alrady congested with Welwyn viaduct as the controling bottleneck. Once the Thameslink is completed there will really major arguments about who is allocated of paths on that segment of the network. Connecting the ECML adds long term flexibility to the network. Time differences between running at high speed on a new line as compared to threading through the congested south end of ECML are unlikely to be significant in my humble opinion.

Much of my original suggestions on this thread were dominated by ideas in item number two.

1) I'd think a south coast-Heathrow connection would be very well recieved - obviously there would be opposition but when isn't there?

2) I'm just thinking of journey times (no point in an HSL unless the journey times are reduced significantly), maybe this would be more agreeable:



Still got a MML connection but also an ECML further north of where I originally suggested. Can also have a branch onto the Lincoln line aswell.

Or:



Or maybe even a combination of both:



Look at me just blowing the entire treasury like a fecking eejit

[Trainman Dave]

Originally Posted by Trainman Dave

Salif,
I believe that I have been enjoying your doodles on maps of the British Isles for the last few months.
Do you want more idle speculation or do you want to discuss what Christopher Grayling might actually be able to justify to the Treasury?

This is where I stated. There is no point in building a new HSL on the east side of England because it does not solve any of the the congestion problems or serve where the majority of the population live.

I am not proposing railways for speed, but if a new line is built, it might as well be fast. The marginal cost is minimal. I was proposing to build new lines to solve the congestion problems in the railway network.

[Salif]

Originally Posted by Trainman Dave

This is where I stated. There is no point in building a new HSL on the east side of England because it does not solve any of the the congestion problems or serve where the majority of the population live.

I am not proposing railways for speed, but if a new line is built, it might as well be fast. The marginal cost is minimal. I was proposing to build new lines to solve the congestion problems in the railway network.

Then you want the first map of my last post but with a line from Oxford to the south coast.

But my reasoning for an East Coast option is to relieve congestion on the ECML if the West Coast HSL ever reaches saturation. It could be seen as a project for the long term future.

Could basically split it into stages:

High Speed 2: St Pancras/Euston/Paddington/Heathrow-Birmingham/Leicester/Newark
High Speed 3: Birmingham-Manchester Airport-Liverpool/Manchester-Preston/Leeds/Bradford
High Speed 4: Oxfordshire-Bristol Parkway
High Speed 5: Heathrow-Gatwick-Southampton or Oxfordshire-Southampton
High Speed 6: Stansted Airport-Lincoln-Selby Area

[Salif]

Here you go Dave:

[Prestonian]

Dave, needs to get google earth, MS paint and an Image Shack account and become a GEMPIS

[Salif]

Originally Posted by Prestonian

Dave, needs to get google earth, MS paint and an Image Shack account and become a GEMPIS

I agree, you could effectively run the UK being a GEMPIS

Think I've probably posted to many ideas on this thread - might be an idea if I go back and delete some?

[Prestonian]

No keep them all, it shows the work in progress.

[Salif]

Glad you said that because I've edited my previous effort to include south coast-London chord and here's a London map showing the same link.

[Trainman Dave]

Originally Posted by Trainman Dave

Two reactions to your latest map.
1) It shows a new line running from Heathrow south of the SWML to Southhampton. Trying to build that line will bring out every NIMBY in Sussex and Hampshire. The route via Oxford/Newbury/Winchester is mostly farmland and it will have some reactions but nothing like the other route. Drive along A34 and compare it to A31.

2) I have serious disagreement with not connecting the ECML into this system. The southern end of the ECML is alrady congested with Welwyn viaduct as the controling bottleneck. Once the Thameslink is completed there will really major arguments about who is allocated of paths on that segment of the network. Connecting the ECML adds long term flexibility to the network. Time differences between running at high speed on a new line as compared to threading through the congested south end of ECML are unlikely to be significant in my humble opinion.

Much of my original suggestions on this thread were dominated by ideas in item number two.

I was in such a hurry to get to point #2, so I forgot the most impotant aspect of #1.

This line from Winchester to Oxford would be mixed freight and passenger service with an extention of of 25kVac all the way to the ports at Southampton. This would provide single engine 25kVac service for freight trains from Southampton to Manchester.

[Salif]

Originally Posted by Trainman Dave

I was in such a hurry to get to point #2, so I forgot the most impotant aspect of #1.

This line from Winchester to Oxford would be mixed freight and passenger service with an extention of of 25kVac all the way to the ports at Southampton. This would provide single engine 25kVac service for freight trains from Southampton to Manchester.

I was thinking that myself, with a not overly high level of HST traffic freight trains should fit comfortably into the pattern. Could then either connect to an electrified cross country line to the Midlands or a re-opened GCR.

[AngrySlob]

Your network looks very cool. Should be approved when I die right?

In any case, I think priority should be a London to Birmingham connection, and then build up towards the cities of the north. Good transport links to London will encourage economic growth in the north and help out with the income inequality. I really think it is the key and it bothers me not many people seem bothered by this outside these forums..

[Trainman Dave]

^
I agree

[Salif]

Re-hashed some of the previous maps.

First the UK map again and this time I've got each section in different colours so they can be seen seperatley.



High Speed 1 (red): Channel Tunnel-Ebbsfleet-Stratford-London St Pancras

High Speed 2 (yellow): London St Pancras/London Paddington/Heathrow Airport-Birmingham Moor Street/Birmingham International/Leicester/Grantham

(might be worth chucking in a Rugby connection aswell)

The Birmingham International connection will tie in with a new line from the Airport to the Tamworth line and a connection onto the WCML aswell as a new section of track from Colwich to Stone. Also got the Coventry-Birmingham-Wolverhampton line four tracked.

A bit further North Sheffield is by-passed aswell using the Rothar Valley.

High Speed 3 (blue): section one (Birmingham Moor Street-Manchester Airport-Manchester Piccadilly), section two (Manchester Airport-Liverpool), section three (Manchester Piccadilly-Preston-Carnforth), section four (Manchester Piccadilly-Bradford/Leeds City)

Classic line improvements include: a new line from Leeds to the ECML cutting off York, WCML re-alignment north of Carnforth, a couple of Carstairs cut-offs and a link onto the Motherwell-Stirling-Perth-Dundee-Aberdeen line.

High Speed 4 (orange): HS2 Oxfordshire-Bristol Parkway

High Speed 5 (brown): section one (Southampton-Gatwick Airport-Heathrow Airport-HS2 eastbound), section two (Stratford International connection to Anglia and Stansted line)

Sorry Dave, but the opportunity for a HST service connecting Southampton, Gatwick, Heathrow and Stansted Airports is worth the difficult of routing another line through London.

High Speed 6 (pink): Stansted Airport/Grantham (HS2)-Lincoln Parkway-Hambleton Junction/Goole

Taking up Dave's suggestion most (if not all) inter-city services into London can be diverted onto the high speed lines. The section of 'classic' lines which will be freed of these inter city services and their subsequent termini can be used for much improved regional services.

The sections of classic lines which will be freed are London Kings Cross-Peterborough, London St Pancras-Bedford, London Euston-Rugby & London Paddington-Reading-Oxford/Bath-Bristol Temple Meads.

London:

I'd envisage the London HSL terminus being a triple decker Paddington station with Tube and Crossrail services on the bottom level (eight tracks), regional services on the sub-surface level (12) and inter-city services on the current ground level (16 tracks).

West Midlands:



The HSL takes advantage of the space beside the former GW line into Birmingham. Just past Birmingham the line goes past Wolverhampton and up to Manchester Airport. There is also a connection near Walsall to a re-opened Walsall-Burton line to provide connections to Derby.

Birmingham:



Basically an extension to Moor Street which would tie in well with plans to diver some WCML services into the station (connections provided).

Greater Manchester:



Pretty much the same as before, got a nice gentle womanly curve going through Manchester there which I'm particularly proud of. Could also have a connection from Manchester Piccadilly onto the Guide Bridge line to provide for services to Sheffield via a re-opened Woodhead route.

Central Manchester:



An annex to the existing station with the tracks being at a sub-surface level (but nothing above them except the station roof and a few passenger bridges). I've also included a tunnel connection onto the Deansgate line into this new station. The existing through platform at Manchester Piccadilly can then be demolished to free up room for existing platform extension.

Obviously the HSL tunnels under the city to reach Victoria.

Merseyside:



Same as before, follows Ship Canal for a bit - serves JLA and runs to a new Dockside station as shown here:



which has a Northenr connection to form a through station and perhaps win Liverpool some more railway traffic seeing as it wouldn't be a dead end anymore. Got a re-opened tunnel there to serve a sub-surface station aswell.

West Yorks:



Leeds City:



Decided against a new station and stuck with the existing one as it has room for further expansion. A couple of flyovers should ease any capacity constraints that will arise. Trans-Pennine freight can be diverted over the Wakefield line.

North East:



Cut-off section just north of Darlington, re-opened Leamside line - terminating inter-city trains can enter Newcastle from Heaton instead.

Bristol:



Scaled back the HSL to finish at Bristol Parkway with the line into Bristol five tracked. Not sure of the need for a second Severn railway crossing but it can be added in.

[gothicform]

why would you connect via grantham rather than lincoln?

[Salif]

Originally Posted by gothicform

why would you connect via grantham rather than lincoln?

Presumably you are referring to my 'HS2' proposal connecting to the ECML at Grantham?

(sure you can see Lincoln is included on my 'HS6' plan)

My reasoning for that is that it would be quicker to go via Grantham and Newark. Although with a chord from Newark onto the Lincoln line and a short stretch of electrification high speed trains could serve Lincoln as a branch.