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Old March 21st, 2011, 01:36 AM   #1401
flyinfishjoe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
Beautiful though the final design is, I frankly wouldn't be totally disappointed to see this project fall through. Does anyone else find such a tall and clearly expensive building distasteful in a city/country where the average person makes less than 3000USD per year? The fact that it's being constructed in what will be former slums makes it all the worse.

I can see this sort of thing once India has hit China's level of development, but as it is, this is clearly something brought about by a few people having a lot more money than most Indians (or anyone else) do. I'd be more than happy to see this built in 20-30 years time, but India is simply too poor for this to seem like anything other than a fragrant display of India's evermore disparate social strata.
This has to be the most amazing and enlightening argument I have ever heard in my life. I'm at a total loss for words here...I don't even know how to even respond to sheer, intellectual eloquence of this sort. What were we silly Indians thinking? How could we ever match the sophistication and refinement of whatever country that aquaticko is from? Let us all go back to our slums and become snake charmers riding elephants on our daily 20 rupee salary while taking calls for American tech companies. We poor, dirty Indians obviously don't even deserve to look at a tall, modern building. That would just be a "fragrant display of India's evermore disparate social strata."


BTW, what is "fragrant display" supposed to mean?
"fragrant |ˈfrāgrənt| - adj. having a pleasant or sweet smell"
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Old March 21st, 2011, 03:20 AM   #1402
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Originally Posted by flyinfishjoe View Post
This has to be the most amazing and enlightening argument I have ever heard in my life. I'm at a total loss for words here...I don't even know how to even respond to sheer, intellectual eloquence of this sort. What were we silly Indians thinking? How could we ever match the sophistication and refinement of whatever country that aquaticko is from? Let us all go back to our slums and become snake charmers riding elephants on our daily 20 rupee salary while taking calls for American tech companies. We poor, dirty Indians obviously don't even deserve to look at a tall, modern building. That would just be a "fragrant display of India's evermore disparate social strata."


BTW, what is "fragrant display" supposed to mean?
"fragrant |ˈfrāgrənt| - adj. having a pleasant or sweet smell"
Look, I'd have to be a total fool to argue against Indian culture, and the economic potential of India is literally impossible to deny. All I'm saying is it's not there yet, economically. And I have absolutely nothing against India surpassing America in every possible way; in fact, considering it's long history and massive population, it ought to. But the potential for a massive income gap to develop between rich and poor is simply too great. Even China, which could potentially redistribute wealth so that there is perfect income equality, has not prioritized doing so, despite the fact that it remains "communist". This tower, lovely though it is, can't look like anything other than the filthy rich Indian elite trying to literally stand above the poor which India still has plenty of.

As I said before, I'm happy to see beautiful buildings built anywhere, and would be happy to see this one completed; I just don't want Indian politicians to be caught up in ensuring such massive structures are built and enticing them to their locales, when there are still slums in many of the cities, and numerous other issues that ought to be resolved. The 20 rupee salaries from American tech companies are precisely why I don't think this tower should be built yet, never even mind that the workers used in the construction of such structures are usually themselves far underpaid (and invariably south and southeast Asian). If you really think that such structures are only ever looked at as beautiful and magnificent, you're too far inside your own head for me to win an argument against you.

And please. An American argue for the sophistication and refinement of his country??? Have you ever been here before?

P.S.- Pardon the typo; that should've been "flagrant". I'm sure you've never made a mistake with anything, ever.

P.P.S.- I didn't mean to hijack this thread, I just thought this was more than a place for the admiration of the fancy, shiny, giant metal-and-glass phalluses.
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Old March 21st, 2011, 04:35 AM   #1403
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I don't even want to reply to you anymore and I think we all should ignore this aqutico guy !!

dude just talk about the building its not a discussion forum on these issues !!
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Old March 21st, 2011, 04:51 AM   #1404
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If you look at my original post, it actually was a comment on the building, but some of you took it as me having said India isn't good enough for this building, when I simply said it isn't rich enough for it not to seem a little bit garish; surely, we can agree that "good" and "rich" are totally separate?

Edit: Besides, are we not allowed to disagree on a construction project? Here I was thinking this was a place for that....

Last edited by aquaticko; March 21st, 2011 at 04:59 AM.
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Old March 21st, 2011, 05:12 AM   #1405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
Look, I'd have to be a total fool to argue against Indian culture, and the economic potential of India is literally impossible to deny. All I'm saying is it's not there yet, economically. And I have absolutely nothing against India surpassing America in every possible way; in fact, considering it's long history and massive population, it ought to. But the potential for a massive income gap to develop between rich and poor is simply too great. Even China, which could potentially redistribute wealth so that there is perfect income equality, has not prioritized doing so, despite the fact that it remains "communist". This tower, lovely though it is, can't look like anything other than the filthy rich Indian elite trying to literally stand above the poor which India still has plenty of.

As I said before, I'm happy to see beautiful buildings built anywhere, and would be happy to see this one completed; I just don't want Indian politicians to be caught up in ensuring such massive structures are built and enticing them to their locales, when there are still slums in many of the cities, and numerous other issues that ought to be resolved. The 20 rupee salaries from American tech companies are precisely why I don't think this tower should be built yet, never even mind that the workers used in the construction of such structures are usually themselves far underpaid (and invariably south and southeast Asian). If you really think that such structures are only ever looked at as beautiful and magnificent, you're too far inside your own head for me to win an argument against you.

And please. An American argue for the sophistication and refinement of his country??? Have you ever been here before?

P.S.- Pardon the typo; that should've been "flagrant". I'm sure you've never made a mistake with anything, ever.

P.P.S.- I didn't mean to hijack this thread, I just thought this was more than a place for the admiration of the fancy, shiny, giant metal-and-glass phalluses.
Basically, you want India to solve all of its problems first and then build an edifice like this, right? Unfortunately, thats not how the world works. No country in the world has done that. While you refer to China and its amazing progress, the fact is that while the overall number of people living below the poverty line there has decreased considerably, there has actually been an increase in the rural urban income disparity there.

Why not think the other way round? Why not be positive? When I see this building, when the "poor" construction workers see this, the general attitude of people here is to be "I want to be inside this in a few years". If he can't do it, he will try to achieve his dreams through his child. I have seen that happen to my family in the past three generations. My great grandpa worked as a horseman for the British, his son (my grandpa) as a coolie, my dad started of working as a laborer but he through education managed to get in to the Indian Navy and now I can say I am far far better off than any of them and can look forward to my kids to be in much better shape than I am now. We're no huge success story but my laborer garandpa is a millionaire now. I am sure there are thousands of such success stories here. A huge percentage of Indians are optimistic about their future. There has never a better time this country had like now.

I think there is a difference in how people perceive structures like these. For most of us Indians, these are visual check points to measure the rate of our growth and not something that highlights income disparities. Everyone knows about the disparity here. Sure, with India's massive population, it would take us a hell lot of time to be "up there". India's red tapism and inefficient democracy isn't helping things either. These structures also create massive employment opportunities - and I personally know many people who stay in the slums and work here. I tell you, none of them are worried about the fact that they cannot afford buying a flat here as of now - but they all have a twinkle in their eyes and are pretty confident in getting there soon. I think it's an attitude like this that a country needs to solve its problems and I tell you, India is on the way. Its a long, rocky, winding road though.



*Rant ends*
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Old March 21st, 2011, 05:34 AM   #1406
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Originally Posted by v-8ras View Post
Basically, you want India to solve all of its problems first and then build an edifice like this, right? Unfortunately, thats not how the world works. No country in the world has done that. While you refer to China and its amazing progress, the fact is that while the overall number of people living below the poverty line there has decreased considerably, there has actually been an increase in the rural urban income disparity there.

Why not think the other way round? Why not be positive? When I see this building, when the "poor" construction workers see this, the general attitude of people here is to be "I want to be inside this in a few years". If he can't do it, he will try to achieve his dreams through his child. I have seen that happen to my family in the past three generations. My great grandpa worked as a horseman for the British, his son (my grandpa) as a coolie, my dad started of working as a laborer but he through education managed to get in to the Indian Navy and now I can say I am far far better off than any of them and can look forward to my kids to be in much better shape than I am now. We're no huge success story but my laborer garandpa is a millionaire now. I am sure there are thousands of such success stories here. A huge percentage of Indians are optimistic about their future. There has never a better time this country had like now.

I think there is a difference in how people perceive structures like these. For most of us Indians, these are visual check points to measure the rate of our growth and not something that highlights income disparities. Everyone knows about the disparity here. Sure, with India's massive population, it would take us a hell lot of time to be "up there". India's red tapism and inefficient democracy isn't helping things either. These structures also create massive employment opportunities - and I personally know many people who stay in the slums and work here. I tell you, none of them are worried about the fact that they cannot afford buying a flat here as of now - but they all have a twinkle in their eyes and are pretty confident in getting there soon. I think it's an attitude like this that a country needs to solve its problems and I tell you, India is on the way. Its a long, rocky, winding road though.



*Rant ends*
The end of your post is "rant ends", but this doesn't seem like a rant to me, just a reasonable perspective on the whole situation, and, by virtue of your being Indian, better-informed than mine. And it remains an honest perspective, too; the concern I expressed in the initial post was that Indian politicians would become focused on these more impressive projects, instead of work that is, if we're honest, more essential than a 700m+ tower, but clearly, Indians themselves are not.

Perhaps that is, as you say, the perceptual difference that arises from your being a country on it's way up, and my being in one that's essentially on it's way down, at least in relative terms. People of my generation, and the one before mine, just don't have any of these generational-progress stories to work from; typically, the class you're born into is the class you die in. But clearly, the situation in America and India are different, something I suppose I should have taken better account of in my initial post.

Knowing you get everything I'm saying, I'd have thought that you'd be more understanding of my view on this building, and the problems I see when looking at it, instead of jumping on my back.
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Old March 21st, 2011, 07:45 AM   #1407
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Back on topic!! Some updates for India tower would be great!
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Old March 21st, 2011, 07:46 AM   #1408
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please stop responding to these ignorent people .they have very limited knowledge of india and behaving like an socalled expert on india and indian people.
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Old March 21st, 2011, 09:52 AM   #1409
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Originally Posted by India101 View Post
I didn't go the the construction site to take pictures of men working, I was was more focused on the foundations.

But if you look at Desiguys pics from Dec you can see plenty of workers in all corners of the site.





Now that's more like it, wow that is really one massive hole in the ground. Lots of progress since the last pics were taken in December. Keep em comin boys!
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Old March 21st, 2011, 04:03 PM   #1410
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please stop responding to these ignorent people .they have very limited knowledge of india and behaving like an socalled expert on india and indian people.
Some FRESH pictures of the site would be really nice.

How about this for advise: Replace all your 'Indians' and 'Americans' and 'Chinese' with the word humans.
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Old March 21st, 2011, 06:03 PM   #1411
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please stop responding to these ignorent people .they have very limited knowledge of india and behaving like an socalled expert on india and indian people.

When did I ever claim to be an expert on anything? I was simply reporting my opinion of this development using the facts I could find, and the only person to fire back with anything other than a remark on me personally has been v-8ras.

As I said before, the original post was about the building, but then you all went crazy on me; I've just been defending myself. If I had known that I'd get this sort of response from so many posters simply for stating a dissenting opinion on this project, I wouldn't have bothered saying anything in the first place.

For the record, I do think this is a beautiful building and, as I said before, would be happy to see it built.

The end.
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Old March 21st, 2011, 06:16 PM   #1412
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works seems to be going on well hope it continues this way!
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Old March 21st, 2011, 11:56 PM   #1413
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some good progress back in december,it would be nice to see the progess for march .
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Old March 22nd, 2011, 02:28 AM   #1414
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please stop responding to these ignorent people .they have very limited knowledge of india and behaving like an socalled expert on india and indian people.
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Old March 22nd, 2011, 04:29 AM   #1415
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Ugh. I've been following South Korean and Dubai projects on here for years. My intent in posting on this thread was not to stir up trouble; I just wanted to post a thought I've had about this building for a while. Again, so sorry for posting a dissenting opinion. I had no idea this was a bad thing on here.

God...Some welcome from you people. I'm too frustrated about all this nonsense to post on this thread anymore. Now I do hope this building doesn't see the light of day, just to disappoint all you people

To anyone who simply decided to jump on the bandwagon of insulting me without even reading what I was posting: F*** off.
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Old March 22nd, 2011, 04:38 AM   #1416
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Old March 22nd, 2011, 04:51 AM   #1417
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I'm happy to see skyscrapers wherever they're built.

And that's what I'm saying--the fact that this is being built by a private company (which also means that no profit from this project goes to the government) shows that some people in India are much, much, much richer than others, and unlike China, India's government doesn't allow for easy redistribution of wealth. Which means many poor people on the streets of Mumbai, looking up at this massive, beautiful building, have no recourse to complain about wealth inequality, nor does the government have any explicit ideological reason to adress the problem.

And you should never use nominal figures for GDP. They take into account exchange rates, and therefore more accurately reflect what currency speculators think of a country's economy than the actual level of economic activity in a country.

Not to mention that most of the places where all the supertalls in China are going up are much richer than the country's average. E.g. Guangdong province (12,000), Shanghai (22,000), Beijing (20,000), most of eastern China really; China's GDP-per-capita is dragged down by the less developed western half of the country. And India's growth rate is still consistently lower than China's, although of course that may change as time goes on.
So you support communism because thats the only system that allows for "easy" distribution of wealth.
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Old March 22nd, 2011, 08:43 AM   #1418
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Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
I'm happy to see skyscrapers wherever they're built.

And that's what I'm saying--the fact that this is being built by a private company (which also means that no profit from this project goes to the government) shows that some people in India are much, much, much richer than others, and unlike China, India's government doesn't allow for easy redistribution of wealth. Which means many poor people on the streets of Mumbai, looking up at this massive, beautiful building, have no recourse to complain about wealth inequality, nor does the government have any explicit ideological reason to adress the problem.

And you should never use nominal figures for GDP. They take into account exchange rates, and therefore more accurately reflect what currency speculators think of a country's economy than the actual level of economic activity in a country.

Not to mention that most of the places where all the supertalls in China are going up are much richer than the country's average. E.g. Guangdong province (12,000), Shanghai (22,000), Beijing (20,000), most of eastern China really; China's GDP-per-capita is dragged down by the less developed western half of the country. And India's growth rate is still consistently lower than China's, although of course that may change as time goes on.
Where did you get the statistics for the Chinese city's GDP per capita? Go to any formal/government statistical data centre, you will see Guangdong is about $5,000-$6,000, Beijing is just around $10,000, Shanghai about $12,000, and Shenzhen (a city in Guangdong) is the richest among the Chinese big cities at about $13,000. Stop bullshiting about China's wealth, don't make people think China is richer than it really is.

Just let you know, China's nominal GDP per capita is just $4,000, ranked about 100th in the world, PPP about $7,000-$8,000, also just around 100th position world-wide(this is due to inflation in China, China's PPP used to be 4x the nominal figure, right now is no longer the case).

Don't think that eastern Chinese cities are much more developed than the country's average. Western China is poorer than eastern China mainly due to its hindered country side, the difference of standard of living in western and eastern cities are much smaller. For instance, Chongqing, a western Chinese city, it ranked 3rd in Chinese skyscraper count, more than Beijing, similar to Shenzhen, and only behind Shanghai and Guangzhou. Also, Chengdu, also a western Chinese city, has GDP per capita about $5,000, which is about 1/2 as Beijing or Shanghai, much smaller than the country side difference between the east and west (the western rural areas has only 1/4 the average income as eastern rural areas). Moreover, the price level of western cities are lower, so if you count GDP per capita in PPP, the difference between eastern and western Chinese cities are even smaller.

Please do not exaggerate the fact that big cities are richer than the country's average. Nations worldwide are the same, even developed countries. For instance, New York has about $70,000, Tokyo has also about $70,000, London is in the high $60,000s, where UK, US, and Japan's GDP per capita is only about $30,000-$40,000. Bangkok, Malaysia, Taipei, Manila, Jakarta, etc etc all has GDP per capita 2-3 times as their country's.

China's fast growth cannot sustain forever, it will eventually reach its saturation level. Look back in history, the U.S relentless growth of 1950s to early 1970s has significantly slowed down, Japan economic miracle ended in the 1990s, and Southeast Asia stopped its 8%-12% real growth after 1997. Soon or later, a new fast growing country will appear, and India is one of the countries that has the biggest potential.

Last edited by crskyline; March 22nd, 2011 at 10:24 AM.
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Old March 22nd, 2011, 04:01 PM   #1419
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Where did you get the statistics for the Chinese city's GDP per capita? Go to any formal/government statistical data centre, you will see Guangdong is about $5,000-$6,000, Beijing is just around $10,000, Shanghai about $12,000, and Shenzhen (a city in Guangdong) is the richest among the Chinese big cities at about $13,000. Stop bullshiting about China's wealth, don't make people think China is richer than it really is.

Just let you know, China's nominal GDP per capita is just $4,000, ranked about 100th in the world, PPP about $7,000-$8,000, also just around 100th position world-wide(this is due to inflation in China, China's PPP used to be 4x the nominal figure, right now is no longer the case).

Don't think that eastern Chinese cities are much more developed than the country's average. Western China is poorer than eastern China mainly due to its hindered country side, the difference of standard of living in western and eastern cities are much smaller. For instance, Chongqing, a western Chinese city, it ranked 3rd in Chinese skyscraper count, more than Beijing, similar to Shenzhen, and only behind Shanghai and Guangzhou. Also, Chengdu, also a western Chinese city, has GDP per capita about $5,000, which is about 1/2 as Beijing or Shanghai, much smaller than the country side difference between the east and west (the western rural areas has only 1/4 the average income as eastern rural areas). Moreover, the price level of western cities are lower, so if you count GDP per capita in PPP, the difference between eastern and western Chinese cities are even smaller.

Please do not exaggerate the fact that big cities are richer than the country's average. Nations worldwide are the same, even developed countries. For instance, New York has about $70,000, Tokyo has also about $70,000, London is in the high $60,000s, where UK, US, and Japan's GDP per capita is only about $30,000-$40,000. Bangkok, Malaysia, Taipei, Manila, Jakarta, etc etc all has GDP per capita 2-3 times as their country's.

China's fast growth cannot sustain forever, it will eventually reach its saturation level. Look back in history, the U.S relentless growth of 1950s to early 1970s has significantly slowed down, Japan economic miracle ended in the 1990s, and Southeast Asia stopped its 8%-12% real growth after 1997. Soon or later, a new fast growing country will appear, and India is one of the countries that has the biggest potential.
Damnit, I try to leave but you all can't cut this crap, can you?

Anyone who uses nominal figures for measuring economies has no idea what they're talking about. And you think I don't know where Shenzhen and Chongqing are? I'll agree that Guangdong isn't so far ahead of everywhere else, but Shanghai, Beijing, and Hong Kong definitely are, and those cities are where most of this construction has happened. Chongqing is an exception, as it's administrated as it's own province; Chengdu is much more representative of most of western China, and a gap of 50% is still a gap or 50%. Here's a link to the figures: http://www.economist.com/content/chinese_equivalents. If you think that the Economist isn't an acceptable source, then so be it.
Getting back to my original point, Mumbai is still much poorer per capita than any of these places.

You think that a 50% difference between cities and national GDP per capita isn't a big difference? Tell that to someone living outside these cities. How you can say I "exaggerate" the difference and then post the figures you have, I'm not sure.

And again, if you had read my posts, you'd see that I said it's likely that India will pass China eventually, but even if you assume it stops growing at Malaysia's present level of GDP-PPP per capita, it still has to double. Assuming China maintains roughly 8% GDP growth per year, thats more than a decade before it stops; it'll take India more than two decades to reach a similar level, although if population trends continue, India may pass China in pure GDP sooner.

And to the guy who mentioned communism, I think it has its merits, yes.

Soooo much crap from the people here. Has anyone even read all of my posts? Not to mention, yet again, someone else starts this shit up with me, and gets off topic. Normally I don't let online people bother me, but I'm new here, and if this is how you treat newcomers with dissenting opinions on projects, it's no wonder there aren't more people on these forum.
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Old March 22nd, 2011, 07:16 PM   #1420
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Wow. People, stop going behind @aquaticko. To the Indians here, if someone posts an opinion that contrasts yours, you dismiss him as a troll? spammer? Pathetic online behavior.

Now, lets get back on track shall we?
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