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Old May 10th, 2007, 03:47 PM   #1
Locke
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POLAND | High Speed Rail

Poland's TGV System for Euro 2012


This excellent news and the fans will appreciate it no doubt come Euro 2012! The trains could do up to 250km/h on modernised tracks.

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Poland will have TGV
http://www2.e2012.org/en/2_1275.html

Super-fast railways will be deployed in Poland – such promise was made by PKP Intercity company. Granting to Poland and Ukraine of the right to host EURO accelerated the decision of PKP Intercity to purchase trains travelling at the speed of 220-230 km/h.

According to company spokesperson, Adrianna Chibowska, such trains would run along the southern connection (Warsaw – Krakow – Katowice), or the northern one (Warsaw – Gdansk).

The tender for purchase of super-fast trains will be announced at the turn of 2007 and 2008.

- The first step for creation of super-fast railways is the purchase of the train by PKP Intercity. Only then Polskie Linie Kolejowe will commence construction of the tracks – this is how the procedure was explained by the PKP Intercity spokesperson.

The company also announced introduction of other solutions facilitating movement of fans during EURO 2012 in Poland and Ukraine.

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Poland's PKP Intercity railways to spend $543 million to buy TGV
07 May 2007 bbj.hu

PKP Intercity wants to transport its passengers with TGV trains running over 200km/h. The railway company wants to buy 20 trains.

After Poland was granted the rights to organize European football championships, PKP Intercity decided to buy TGV trains faster than planned before. „We have decided to buy 20 trains within 2-3 years”, Czeslaw Warsewicz, PKP IC CEO. The feasibility study of the project is being conducted already. According to initial estimates, 20 trains will cost 1.5 billion (€400 million, $543 million). The project will be financed fifty-fifty from the company’s own funds and EU funds.

PKP IC wants to get funds from EU transport program for the years 2007-2013. The company has its own fund. Last year, it had 32 million zloty of net income. This year should be similar with record Q1 results - for the first time in history, the company had net income in the Q1 which is traditionally very difficult for railways. Besides, the company can borrow money. „We can get 200 million zloty even today”, Czeslaw Warsewicz assured.

According to initial itinerary, first TGV trains would start operations in Poland in 2010-2011. The problem is that the railway infrastructure is too old in some parts to go faster then 160km/h, and there are sections where trains have to slow down to several dozens km/h. It is up to PKP Polskie Koleje Liniowe, the company responsible for the railway infrastructure, whether TGV trains will be able to go fast in Poland. (railway-market.pl)

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PKP to Welcome Euro 2012 with TGV Trains
8 May 2007 - Polish News Bulletin

The PKP Intercity railway carrier is jumping on the bandwagon of the Euro 2012 football championships. It has decided to purchase 20 TGV trains within the next two or three years, a move the company has long planned but for many years postponed due to lack of funding and the bad condition of the railway infrastructure in Poland. However, with the high-profile sporting event ahead, PKP Intercity decided that it is now time for action. As the Puls Biznesu daily reports, work is already under way to conduct a feasibility study. According to initial estimates, the project will consume some EUR380m (nearly ZL1.5bn), which the company intends to acquire from two sources: its own resources; and EU funds, namely from the Sectoral Operational Programme Transport. As for PKP's own money, the company had net profits of ZL32m in 2006 and its ambitions for this year are also quite high. For the first time in its history, PKP Intercity ended the first quarter in the black.

Last edited by Locke; May 19th, 2007 at 05:03 PM.
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Old May 11th, 2007, 05:34 PM   #2
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Good news for Poland! Congratulations
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Old May 12th, 2007, 03:39 AM   #3
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Yep, should be good and of course in time will no doubt expand and improve further.

Last edited by Locke; May 12th, 2007 at 04:13 AM.
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Old May 12th, 2007, 10:16 PM   #4
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Great news. One day, we will have a HSR net all over the EU. If things develop well. I am looking forward to it.

Does anyone have a map of the proposed polnish high speed tracks?
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Old May 12th, 2007, 10:37 PM   #5
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how can they make such a big purchase financed 50% by EU funds without an EU- wide bidding process....

Alsthom ( who builds the TGV) is not the only train producer in the EU....
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Old May 12th, 2007, 10:58 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke View Post
Poland's TGV System for Euro 2012
This excellent news and the fans will appreciate it no doubt come Euro 2012! The trains could do up to 250km/h on modernised tracks.
Finally a realistic and achieveable project to for high speed operations in Poland. For the last few years I have been reading reports of many new studies for a new HSLs in Poland and most of them ignore that the CMK line (Warsaw to Katowice & Krakow) which was engineered for High Speed Trains in the 1970's. This proposal appears to be based on the CMK. Of course there were level crosings, limited signaling and no trains capable for more than 160 km/h for a long time so its potential has never been realised. Improving this line will involve only crossing removal and better signaling as well as new trains.

North of Warsaw to Gdansk is a little more work, but I believe that, there has been an ongoing program of small improvements which will support the operation of tilting trains such the ETR-460 from Fiat (now Alstom) which I think holds the Polish rail speed record set on the CMK a few years ago.

Of course this procurement will have to meet EU regualtions but, unless Alstom has let the Fiat designs lapse, I would expect that they will make a highly competitive proposal. After 15 years of rejection by SNCF, maybe we will finally see a French tilting TGV, however it will be operating in Poland.
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Last edited by Trainman Dave; May 13th, 2007 at 03:22 AM.
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Old May 13th, 2007, 05:19 AM   #7
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well I would have thought they chose ICE since Germany is just close by, and ICE is a better system overall. Is there still resentment from WWII era?
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Old May 13th, 2007, 05:35 AM   #8
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Well PKP clarified that they meant TGV *class* trains, since obviously there is a tender process that starts later this year. So it could end up being ICE, TGV etc.
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Old May 13th, 2007, 05:44 AM   #9
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i see, are they going to opt for the most up to date technology of some of the early versions to save cost? will this integrate with Germany's and France's HSR network in the future? Will we see train from Krakow to London?
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Old May 13th, 2007, 05:46 AM   #10
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I suspect that they will choose tilting technology because the current state of most of the track in Poland.
That implies Fiat (Alstom), Bombardier, Talgo or CAF but not TGV or normal ICE.

The first international trains will probably be Warsaw to Prague & Vienna. The Czech republic already uses Fiat technology. The problem for the Poles is not running trains to London, but runing faster trains to Poznan, Wroclaw and Belarus. The Germans will provide the trains for Berlin to Warsaw.
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Last edited by Trainman Dave; May 13th, 2007 at 05:53 AM.
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Old May 13th, 2007, 06:37 AM   #11
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There are a number of options, I really hope they start to invest in a proper TGV style system (obviously more work and cost but all do-able) and build it up. Not a fan of tilts and the tilt route isn't really tgv class IMO:

TGV:

KTX:

Spanish AVE (TGV):


TGV's have visited Poland a few times for festivals etc:


German ICE style Bombadiers:

Last edited by Locke; May 19th, 2007 at 04:34 PM.
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Old May 13th, 2007, 01:21 PM   #12
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Great news! Soon all of Europe will be HSR!
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Old May 13th, 2007, 06:20 PM   #13
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Good news for Poland and Europe!
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Old May 13th, 2007, 09:43 PM   #14
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Sorry to dissapoint you guys, but having observed the PKP for my entire life I've grown more realistic. I believe they'll buy the trains and get them before 2012, even around 2010. But the infrastructure (not only tracks, but safety systems, electrical network) almost for sure will not be able to handle the trains with speeds exceeding 200. As for today I predict that CMK will be around 200-220, and the rest of the lines decent 160. Sorry, but thats my view over PKP which can spend gazillion of euros for moving papers from one desk to another and end in total mess. Oh, I wish I were wrong
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Old May 14th, 2007, 11:12 AM   #15
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Sure, it will take a while to upgrade infrastructure. It's a big job, then again maybe they will have some impetus with Euro 2012 and go faster, I read that the freeway program was being accelerated 4 years to coincide with Euro 2012, so why not elsewhere! Let them rise to the ocassion!
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Old May 16th, 2007, 01:41 PM   #16
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Poland: 220 km/h from Krakow?
(Source: wyborcza.pl, 15 May 2007)

PKP said that in three years from now the trip from Krakow to Katowice will be shorter than 30 minutes, to Warsaw - 2 hours and Gdansk - 4.

Today the so called express trains need 90 minutes to cover the 80 km distance from Krakow to Katowice. It takes them 2h 45 minutes to travel to Warsaw (300km) and 7h to get to Gdansk (600km).

Now PKP decided to seep up the creation of rapid rail connections linking the major cities for Euro 2012.

PKP seek ways of getting TGV or Pendolino class trains, which could go as fast as 220 km/h. It would be needed to build a completely new network to enable the trains to reach 300 km.
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Old May 17th, 2007, 05:25 AM   #17
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Pendolino is pure garbage, China Railways just bought some of those and they create endless problems.
Better go for TGV or ICE3 instead, personally I prefer ICE since it's EMU.
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Old May 19th, 2007, 03:44 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sen View Post
Pendolino is pure garbage, China Railways just bought some of those and they create endless problems.
Better go for TGV or ICE3 instead, personally I prefer ICE since it's EMU.
Agreed, TGV is cool and ICE is nice as well! Even if they can't run full speed by 2012 it's still the way to go. Invest in the future. They don't even have to change the colour scheme on the ICE



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Last edited by Locke; May 19th, 2007 at 05:04 PM.
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Old May 26th, 2007, 09:42 AM   #19
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On a related note: (from http://www.railway-market.pl/):

Poland: PKP modernises train stations

National rail carrier PKP is to spend some PLN 1.6-2.3 billion on the modernization of train stations in Poland's major cities ahead of the European 2012 football championships.


Poland: EUR 300m for Katowice station


The name of the investor responsible for the thorough modernisation of the PKP train station in Katowice will be known by the end of 2007, according to a meeting of PKP representatives, the Transport Minister and the voivod of Silesia.
Construction work will begin in 2008 and the train station will be ready by the end of 2010 or the beginning of 2011. The investment will cost at least €300m. PKP would like the new station to combine the functions of a railway station, a car park and a bus station. Since private investor also have a stake in the project, a shopping and services gallery will also be included.
It is still not known whether a brand new structure will be erected or whether the existing one will be rennovated.
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Old May 31st, 2007, 07:14 AM   #20
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With that kind of train the trip from Cracow to Warsaw will take only 1h15.
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