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Old July 8th, 2008, 06:06 PM   #41
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Good point hans280!

Anyway, I am surprised that the Poznan-Berlin link is not included at this stage. The EU would probably fork out a lot of money for that!
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Old July 9th, 2008, 06:48 PM   #42
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Since Poland is a full member of the EU, they have to tender a possible order for the new HSTs, any manufacturer can then make a bid and make an official protest if they don' the win the tender.
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Old July 15th, 2008, 01:11 AM   #43
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Of course, it's an EU procurement no doubt so I'm sure we will see a wide variety of entries and any of them could win.

The minister is just expressing a personal opinion, but it's all good, not really a massive difference if you get from here to there in an ICE or an AGV or a Japanese bullet train, they are all fast and pretty comfortable, AGV is probably the sexiest of the designs but that's about it.
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Old July 17th, 2008, 01:07 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke View Post
The minister is just expressing a personal opinion, but it's all good, not really a massive difference if you get from here to there in an ICE or an AGV or a Japanese bullet train, they are all fast and pretty comfortable, AGV is probably the sexiest of the designs but that's about it.
Hmmm.... I'd suppose AGV is marginally better than the ICE (or Velaro, as Siemens calls it), simply by virtue of being newer. Alstom developed their new train - with distributed enginges, which is totally new in France - with the purpose of taking on competition with Siemens. It would have made no sense to move from prototype to finished product unless they were sure that they'd bring some real improvements. According to newspaper reports one of the main sales arguments is a better energy efficiency - together with Alstom's traditional "safety argument", based on the fact that the TGVs (at least so far) conduct themselves far better than ICEs if they derail or collide with large objects.
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Old July 18th, 2008, 12:26 AM   #45
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i visit poland often. can't wait to see this project completed......
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Old July 19th, 2008, 03:52 AM   #46
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Good to see Poland also planning to make High speed rail link as the country rail network is not so efficient and I had some horrible experiences in it.....
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Old August 29th, 2008, 12:14 PM   #47
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The polish government issued two official documents this month - as an invitation to public discussion.

The first is an official government plan for high speed rail in Poland.
http://www.mi.gov.pl/2-48240d5d22fc1-1788236-p_1.htm

It's the same as before - the line is to go from Warszawa via Łódź to Kalisz, where it will fork to Poznań and Wrocław. A picture from this document with a scheme and connection times:
Quote:
Originally Posted by szymkalisz View Post
(dark blue = current connection times; red = connection times with HSR)


The other document is a master plan for railways in Poland until 2030:
http://www.mi.gov.pl/2-48240d5d22fc1-1788308-p_1.htm
It puts the HSR in a context of other railways is Poland.

A map of planned speeds for railway lines from this document:


The document promises an upgrade of the CMK (the line from Warsaw to Katowice and Kraków built in the 1970s) to the top speed of 250 km/h with DC 3 kV electrification. The ERTMS control system must be introduced to reach such speeds. It also says that this line could be upgraded to 300 km/h by changing the electrification system to AC 25 kV 50 Hz, but it doesn't clearly say if this will be done.

The new part is that connection from CMK to Kraków is to be upgraded: the part Psary-Kozłów - upgrade of the existing line to 200 km/h and from Kozłów to Kraków - a newly built line for 250 km/h.

The timeframe is as follows:
Until 2013 - upgrade of existing lines to 200 km/h (Warszawa-Gdańsk and Wrocław – Poznań – Szczecin) and 160 km/h (for example, Kraków - Rzeszów - ukrainian border).
Until 2020 - building of the "Y" HSR line (Warszawa - Łódź - Wrocław/Poznań) and upgrade of CMK (Warszawa - Kraków/Katowice) with the new link to Kraków. Also upgrade of some lines to 200 km/h (for example, Warszawa - Białystok as a part of Rail Baltica).
Until 2030 - other upgrades and a newly built line from Kraków in the direction of Nowy Sącz as a connection to Slovakia and to Zakopane - the most visited polish mountain resort.


Is this plan realistic? I . It sure needs a lot of money: 10 bln EUR for 2007-2013, 15 bln EUR for 2014-2020 and another 9 bln EUR for 2021-2030...
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Last edited by E2rdEm; August 29th, 2008 at 12:21 PM.
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Old August 29th, 2008, 02:12 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E2rdEm View Post
Is this plan realistic? It sure needs a lot of money: 10 bln EUR for 2007-2013, 15 bln EUR for 2014-2020 and another 9 bln EUR for 2021-2030...
Excellent question. I'm aways skeptical where EU money is involved and the country in question promises great things... ten years from now. The masterplan of the EU in this area is the Trans-European Networks, which operates with HSLs defined as new tracks intended for 250+ km/h and renovated tracks for 200+ km/h. It looks a bit to me as if Poland is dangling the Y-track to Poznan and Wroclaw before the EU's nose in order to get, in the near term, maximum financial support from its rather unambitious 160 km/h line renovations.
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Old August 29th, 2008, 05:24 PM   #49
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Progress of rail link from Okecie airport to Warszawa Zachodnia?

Does anybody know how construction of the rail link between Okecie airport and Warszawa Zachodnia is going? Photos of the line and the new stations would be good. Last I heard all that was needed was the spur off the Warsaw-Radom line building from Sluzewiec to the airport terminal as well as the finishing of the two new stations at Aleje Jeromszkie and Zigury i Wigry Warsaw's airport desperately needs a decent rail connection to the city centre as the roads leading to it are ridiculously limited - just one 4 lane link road is just stupid!
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Old August 29th, 2008, 09:38 PM   #50
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Interestingly there seem to be no international HSR connections planned. I find that rather odd.
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Old August 30th, 2008, 12:21 PM   #51
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Which HSR connection do you mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wonwiin View Post
Interestingly there seem to be no international HSR connections planned. I find that rather odd.
Do you mean HSR connections between Okecie airport and other European capitals? A HSR connection from Okecie airport to say Prague or Berlin would be of limited value when Warszawa Zachnodnia and Warszawa Centralna both get the moderately fast express trains from Berlin to Moscow stopping at both of them. But I know for sure that construction is underway on the rail link from Okecie airport to Warszawa Zachodnia. Once the link between Okecie airport and Warszawa Zachodnia is completed next year then all passengers need to do is to change trains at Warszawa Zachodnia.
The priority is to get Okecie airport properly linked with the centre of the city which it serves.

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Old August 30th, 2008, 02:28 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wonwiin View Post
Interestingly there seem to be no international HSR connections planned. I find that rather odd.
Poland is located in the wrong part of Europe, mate. The people of Spain , Portugal, Italy, France and BeNeLux have been badgering each other - with varying degrees of success - for cross-border highspeed links. For example, when the Portuguese asked the Spaniards for a HSL from Lisbon to Madrid via Badajoz people in Madrid - seeing their many higher domestic priorities - must have thought "oh sh**". However, given their stated commitment to highspeed trains they couldn't very well say no to the neighbours.

Germany has no such inhibitions. You try to ask them to draw a couple of HSLs from, say, Berlin and Leipzig to the border and see what you get out of it. the Czech Republic apparently does not plan to invest in HS rail at all and neither do the Slovak Republic nor Lithuania. So... what's the point in drawing a couple of HS tracks to the border? The train will continue at 120 km/h on the other side.
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Old August 30th, 2008, 05:22 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris80678 View Post
Does anybody know how construction of the rail link between Okecie airport and Warszawa Zachodnia is going? Photos of the line and the new stations would be good.
Upgrade of the "Radom" railway line between Warszawa Zachodnia and Warszawa Służewiec is complete. Starting next monday, the new timetable is introduced, with stops at newly built stations at Al. Jerozlimskie and Żwirki i Wigury.

But the new connection from Warszawa Służewiec to the airport (only 1,5 km of new track, most of it in tunnel) hasn't been started yet. The designs (made by czech company Sudop Praha) are 2 years late... Recently the Czechs said they are finally ready and the tender for construction could open in the end of this year. So the opening of the rail link is now expected in early 2011.
The underground station under the airport terminal was built several years ago - I mean, a concrete shell for the station - because it is a part of the terminal building.

A thread in Polish is here:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...238549&page=19 - you'll find some construction photos there.

Don't you think it's offtopic here? It's not a highspeed line by any means.
There is a thread on city transportation in Warsaw: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...=220086&page=7

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Germany has no such inhibitions. You try to ask them to draw a couple of HSLs from, say, Berlin and Leipzig to the border and see what you get out of it.
At least Germans upgraded the line from Berlin to Frankfurt/Oder (to polish border) to 160 km/h. Otherwise trains on the polish side would go faster than on german... Currently almost all the line from Warsaw via Poznań to german border at Frankfurt/O is 160 km/h. The Berlin-Warszawa-Express goes 3 times a day. It takes 6-6,5 hours, so it's definitely no match for airplanes.

As you can see in my previous post, with the "Y" HSL in place they also want to upgrade the Poznań - Frankfurt stretch to 200 km/h. Will the Germans do the same with their link to Frankfurt? Without it - it won't be possible to have journey times between Warsaw and Berlin below 4 hours. (Which is still too long).

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
the Czech Republic apparently does not plan to invest in HS rail at all [...] So... what's the point in drawing a couple of HS tracks to the border? The train will continue at 120 km/h on the other side.
If the Czechs make any HSL, it will definitely be Praha-Brno-Ostrava, as it is the route where currently their Pendolinos go (so it's the most profitable passenger route). Ostrava is only some 30 km from polish border. On the polish side there is a problematic stretch to Katowice, but then the trains could go to Warsaw over the CMK - 250 km/h... I think this route will all be high-speed some time... around 2050.
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Old August 31st, 2008, 11:30 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Germany has no such inhibitions. You try to ask them to draw a couple of HSLs from, say, Berlin and Leipzig to the border and see what you get out of it. the Czech Republic apparently does not plan to invest in HS rail at all and neither do the Slovak Republic nor Lithuania. So... what's the point in drawing a couple of HS tracks to the border? The train will continue at 120 km/h on the other side.
Meh, the Germans already had a pretty big project on their hands the last two decades.
East Germany has started to grow now, they've got their debt under control, won't take long before they start investing more in high speed.
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Old August 31st, 2008, 03:01 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koen Acacia View Post
Meh, the Germans already had a pretty big project on their hands the last two decades.
East Germany has started to grow now, they've got their debt under control, won't take long before they start investing more in high speed.
Yeah well... whenever one discusses this theme with German people they come up with the "Deutsche Einheit" argument. My problem is, one can get good infrastructure for money - and bad one. During the Wirtschaftswunder after WW2 Germany gained a unique competitive advantage that stayed with her for a generation thereafter by generally investing in the most advanced solutions at the time: Autobahnen, high-capacity rail, Europe's best (?) analogous telephone system, etc. Their European competitors were reduced to languishing under the "disadvantage of taking the lead", saddled as they were with old roads and even older railways. Oh, they paid for their investment, the old Germans did. I guess we have both seen pictures of dock workers in Bremerhaven and Hamburg around 1950 having a raw Kohlrabi for lunch?

The reunification provided a similar opportunity, which has IMO been squandered. The best-ever rail connections could have been drawn between the new capital Berlin and the two business capitals Hamburg and München. Instead we got an Ausbau/Neubau/Ausbau connection on München-Berlin, with a long detour through the central town of Erfurt - alledgedly because the landscape around Hof (direct trace from München to Leipzig) is too hilly, but in reality because of local politics in Sachsen. And we got an Ausbaustrecke Hamburg-Berlin (via Wittenberg, due to pressure from the local "Stadtkönig"), whose tracks are already cracking and must be replaced. When the French asked Germany to make good on the La Rochelle agreement concerning a direct connection Paris-Frankfurt and Paris-Stuttgart the received a cold shower: oh, but Deutsche Bahn plans no imminent investments, and anyway that direct train (travelling, of course, non-stop through France) shall have "Pflichthalt" in Saarbrücken and Kaiserslautern - and waste 15 minutes changing direction on the "Kopfbahnhof" of Mannheim.

Koen, in my view the Germans have cocked up real badly. Nobody, of course, subsist on a few raw vegetables even after the unification. In the 1990s and onward the Germans faced Choice 1: do we want Regionalsubsidien and Arbeitslosengeld or do we want investments in the next generation? And Choice 2: do we want local politicians to carve up the cake or do we want to focus on the national interest. They made their choices. In my view, they made the wrong choices.
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Old August 31st, 2008, 10:15 PM   #56
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warsaw - Wroclaw 1:30. Great time!
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Old January 24th, 2009, 07:12 PM   #57
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Old January 26th, 2009, 03:14 AM   #58
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Any news on the Polish HSR??
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Old January 26th, 2009, 07:09 PM   #59
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http://www.railwaygazette.com/news_v...ed_plunge.html
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Old January 28th, 2009, 06:20 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Poland is located in the wrong part of Europe, mate. The people of Spain , Portugal, Italy, France and BeNeLux have been badgering each other - with varying degrees of success - for cross-border highspeed links. For example, when the Portuguese asked the Spaniards for a HSL from Lisbon to Madrid via Badajoz people in Madrid - seeing their many higher domestic priorities - must have thought "oh sh**". However, given their stated commitment to highspeed trains they couldn't very well say no to the neighbours.

Germany has no such inhibitions. You try to ask them to draw a couple of HSLs from, say, Berlin and Leipzig to the border and see what you get out of it. the Czech Republic apparently does not plan to invest in HS rail at all and neither do the Slovak Republic nor Lithuania. So... what's the point in drawing a couple of HS tracks to the border? The train will continue at 120 km/h on the other side.
You are completelly wrong in your assessment of the Portuguese/Sapnish bilateral relations ... it was actually the spanish that BEGGED to the portuguese to allow a connection to our huge (and almost totally underused) deep sea harbours and cities.

Just for the record ... tree of the biggest (in terms of potential use and capabilities) harbours in europe are in Portugal ... namelly Lisboa(tagus river) , Setubal(sado river) and Sines (a huge deep sea development plan) ... considering that spanish harbours are packed full and lacking in their capacity to expand it has been devised a project to create a rail link between a dry-port in Madrid and those 3 harbours ... this created the Sines-Badajoz rail project ... wich in time evolved to the Lisboa-Madrid Very High Speed rail link ... wich includes a huge (and costly) 6 lane road/4 track rail bridge near Lisboa ... some 600 km of 350km/h HSL (wich wil form 1 leg of the main iberian Y) and a large freigh rail network.

Lisboa-Madrid air route is one of the most used world wide (over a million anual passengers) .. .the potential to an enormous growth is there ... Madrid and Lisboa are both of them the main doorways of air traffic from europe to sout/central americas and africa.
(just the air traffic from the UK to portugal is well over 5 million pax./year)


Simple track upgrade of the current rail route would be useless (500km in a straight line) ... so if building a "new" route why not buit it just along the old one to a standard of 350km/h or even more ??? add the ludicrously SMALL cost of buiding such a railway (almost flat terrain in its entire lenght) and it's a top priority EU project (it links 3 major european harbours to the spanish capital).

and why is it relevant when the topic subject is Poland ???

Precisely because it's the EU priority to link those same harbours in the atlantic with ... Poland and beyond ... in a single railway corridor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wonwiin View Post
Interestingly there seem to be no international HSR connections planned. I find that rather odd.
Because there is no distinction between an upgraded 200km/h railway and a "over" 250km/h "new" HSL ???


the plans for Poland include:

Rail Baltica = EU TEN project number 27 = a HSR link between Warsaw-Kaunas-Riga-Tallin-Helsinki ... most of it will be upgraded tracks ... probably we will see even a under the sea tunnel between tallin and Helsinki.
http://ec.europa.eu/ten/transport/ma.../axes/pp27.pdf

EU Project n.23 = a HSR link between Gdansk-Warsaw-Wien ... most of it will be old railways upgraded to 160/200 ... and will include that same 250km/h Warsaw-Katowice HSL
http://ec.europa.eu/ten/transport/ma.../axes/pp23.pdf


To the best of my knowledge the "non existant" HSL international conections in poland will be:

160/200 km/h railways to Berlin , Riga , Tallin , Wien , Bratislava , Brno , etc etc etc ???

Too many "non existing" railways ...

Is any of them run "at capacity" nowadays ???

Notice that "main" railway axis that actually work like "main railway axis" are left behind in the TEN classification ... such as the Paris/Benelux-Berlin-Warsaw link ...
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