Bangkok Urban Planning!

[Sartassa]

Greetings!

I am a 19 year-old student from Germany. For my school-leaving examination-presentation in Geography i need some urgent information about urban planning in Bangkok.
Please, could you recommand me some URLs to look at?!
I am right desperate now, because I am not able to find something referring to that topic.
And be so kind and excuse my bad English, I am doing my best!

Bye, Sartassa

[thainotts]

I'm not surprised that there is a lack of information. For a start, maybe you could look at the mass transit masterplans. Those are probably the clearest ones you'll get. Search around www.2bangkok.com for them.

Other than that, you might find some zoning laws at the BMA's website and maybe traffic masterplans at the traffic police's website, for expressways and roads, maybe try the Expressway Authority or the Highways departments website.

To tell you the truth, there is a sad lack of info regarding this matter unless you really dig for it.

[eAB]

even it's in thai, this may help.

source: http://subweb.dpt.go.th/sus/49_lawma...lt_Bangkok.htm

[cuica]

The sad truth is, there isn't much urban planning done in Bangkok.

Where should I start?

Transportation: lack of proper mass transit planning until this day; lack of meaningful laws to regulate car and road use; constant congestion six days a week (except Sundays). Almost no bicycle lanes in the city; the few that exist are poorly designed and maintained (e.g. Narathiwat Rd, Rajadamri Rd, between Lumpini and Asok)

Parks: very few large public parks in or near center of the city.

Architecture: very little respect for preservation of old buildings or old neighbourhoods; no sense of design aesthetics with (most) modern high rises; not a memorable skyline at all.

Walkable?: not very walkable streets; extremely poor sidewalks or sometimes no sidewalks at all; big streets that have sidewalks are horrible to walk due to car pollution.

Zoning: zoning laws seem to exist but not strictly enforced. Factories can be next to expensive condos can be next to slums.

The only upside? Perhaps you have diversity everywhere you look. Mix use is supposed to be a virtue for great neighbourhoods. However, in Bangkok, it seems like diversity is created more by chaos than planning.

[napoleon]

Town and Country planning department.


http://www.dtcp.go.th/

or

http://www.bma.go.th/dcp/


So sadly, I can not find more informations in English language.

[thainotts]

Originally Posted by cuica

The sad truth is, there isn't much urban planning done in Bangkok.

Where should I start?

Transportation: lack of proper mass transit planning until this day; lack of meaningful laws to regulate car and road use; constant congestion six days a week (except Sundays). Almost no bicycle lanes in the city; the few that exist are poorly designed and maintained (e.g. Narathiwat Rd, Rajadamri Rd, between Lumpini and Asok)

Our bicycle lanes are crap. Its better if they don't exist. As for "laws to regulate car and road use" I don't see how Thailand is any different from other countries.

Traffic has improved in the past few years, I hope you noticed. the expressway has helped alot and not nearly as bad as your dour post makes it to be.

Parks: very few large public parks in or near center of the city.

Suan Rommaneenart, Suan Santichaiprakarn, Suan Benjakitti, Suan Lumpini, Suan Ben... (next to Emporium), Suan Ror Kao, the whole Phra Pradaeng bend of the river, Suan Jatujak, Suan Rotfai, etc. you can say that again. all of these are "large."

Architecture: very little respect for preservation of old buildings or old neighbourhoods; no sense of design aesthetics with (most) modern high rises; not a memorable skyline at all.

You can say that again as well. have you seen recent additions to the skyline as in central world offices, paragon, baiyoke 2 is decent. new buildings in sukhumvit are nice as well. i do agree with some of your assessments, but if you weren't so negative all the time, you'd be alot more pleasant and truthful.

tell me the grand palace is not well preserved. the whole damned rattanakosin island is well preserved, old shophouses are being painted anew, building anything new requires approval from about 387 government agencies, temples are restored every now and then, the grand palace and colonial style buildings are all well preserved, have you seen vimanmek palace, ananta samakom throne hall, and rattanakosin at all?

other than that, the shophouses in sukhumvit and other areas are not worth preserving at all.

Walkable?: not very walkable streets; extremely poor sidewalks or sometimes no sidewalks at all; big streets that have sidewalks are horrible to walk due to car pollution.

Completely true. but once again, all complaints. what'd you want, someone to turn those big roads into a tiny soi with 30 m sidewalks for you?

Zoning: zoning laws seem to exist but not strictly enforced. Factories can be next to expensive condos can be next to slums.

True yet again. See, i like you and do agree. but you're just someone who's wayyy too much on the fringes of whinge.

The only upside? Perhaps you have diversity everywhere you look. Mix use is supposed to be a virtue for great neighbourhoods. However, in Bangkok, it seems like diversity is created more by chaos than planning.

the only upside? you're having a laugh. you can't even put in a nice word for the only upside. how you made the "only upside" sound like a downside, i don't understand.

BTW, the guy asked for links about urban planning, not a rant.

[thainotts]

=double post=

[Jo]

Originally Posted by thainotts

Our bicycle lanes are crap. Its better if they don't exist. As for "laws to regulate car and road use" I don't see how Thailand is any different from other countries.

This is a rant There should be more bicycle lanes, even if the weather isn't suitable. I know one person who would use them. At least we have ProBike, one of the best bike shops I have seen.

BTW, Bkk has the shape of a butterfly

[Zoowatch]

so sad...

this looks like a decent thread hijacked by rants (from an unidentified newbie).

i was looking through my computer to help the original poster with his project on bkk city planning.

but i am thinking twice now because i am potentially feeding trolls

[Zoowatch]

Originally Posted by Sartassa

Greetings!

I am a 19 year-old student from Germany. For my school-leaving examination-presentation in Geography i need some urgent information about urban planning in Bangkok.
Please, could you recommand me some URLs to look at?!
I am right desperate now, because I am not able to find something referring to that topic.
And be so kind and excuse my bad English, I am doing my best!

Bye, Sartassa

hi there...

i have some PDFs and images which may be very useful to your project.
this include the latest version of the city plan...

please identify yourself in a PM and leave me your email

i can send you the image files....

make sure that your email account is capable of accepting a really large image file (i really mean it) something like 5000 x 4000 pixels JPEGs... therefore, no hotmail email address please

one thing i have to tell u in advance... most of the documents from the govt are in thai but the maps might still be useful.

[Sartassa]

Thank you for your answers...

It still takes me a lot of time to read your posts, because of my bad English.
So - can you help me?! What is a rant?!
Besides, I am a girl, not a guy!

So, I will go on reading...with a dictionnary in front of me...

[cuica]

My apologies to the original poster, who indeed asked for URLs to help her project. But I do not think I was going overboard with my opinions re: urban planning in Bangkok. Love it or hate it, but my original point is still: there is so much more that needs to be done in Bangkok regarding urban planning. Isn't that something that the OP deserves to know as well, assuming at least some of my points are valid?

I will include some URLs for Ms. Sartassa after my reply to Mr. Thainotts.

Originally Posted by thainotts

As for "laws to regulate car and road use" I don't see how Thailand is any different from other countries.

Well, I could write a paper on this subject. If you think that traffic is actually pretty good on Sathorn, Silom, Rama IV, Rajadamri, Sukhumvit on rush hour then ignore what I will say below; but if you are like me who thinks that the Bangkok rush hour traffic is quite unproductive for everyone who is driving, then there should be some drastic law to regulate the flow of cars into this area during rush hour. London for example has a road charge for cars going into centre of the city; Singapore makes cars so expensive to own for the average middle class person that many people instead rely on its excellent public transportation; in Japan, one must prove that he has a parking space before he can buy a car (minicars exempt from this law.) I am not sure what Bangkok has: according to one of last year's issue of Bangkok Post's Motoring, each day there are 500 new cars being registered in Bangkok. Obviously people can afford the cars despite the current taxation schemes, so perhaps more drastic measures are needed to regulate the flow of cars into Bangkok centre but none whatsoever exist at the moment.

And what about "dedicated bus lanes" on Sukumvit - those are supposed to be bus lanes only but most car drivers don't respect that and drive on them during restricted hours. Law enforcement is lax and many drivers can afford a 100 Baht bribe to the police. One of the many meaningless traffic rules indeed.

Of course if Bangkok had a much better non-bus mass transit system then I probably won't be sitting here "complaining". But it doesn't. The current skytrain and BTS system only offers very partial coverage of the entire area of Bangkok. The good news is that Thai Govt. just received a large dose of money from Japan to build 5 more subway/mass transit lines... so check back with us in a few years and see if we are doing better.

Our bicycle lanes are crap. Its better if they don't exist.

With gasoline prices rising, I have seen more cyclists on Bangkok roads. Bangkok is a fairly flat city and the govt. should really encourage people to ride bicycles by providing good and safe bike lanes. Bicycles are quiet, don't cause pollution and cheap to ride.

Raining season is not a problem as it seldom rains continuously (rather strong rain that comes in spouts and sunshine in between) and with the heat the roads get dried quite quickly. Cycling should be encouraged, not discouraged. Shame on Mr. Thainotts for suggesting otherwise.

Traffic has improved in the past few years, I hope you noticed. the expressway has helped alot and not nearly as bad as your dour post makes it to be.

Lots of people including myself commute within the Central Business District where it would be unfeasible or silly to get on the expressway to go less than a few km. So those who insist going by car or bus are stuck with everyone else on the very few major large roads during rush hours.

Suan Rommaneenart, Suan Santichaiprakarn, Suan Benjakitti, Suan Lumpini, Suan Ben... (next to Emporium), Suan Ror Kao, the whole Phra Pradaeng bend of the river, Suan Jatujak, Suan Rotfai, etc. you can say that again. all of these are "large."

Let's put things in a bit of perspective:

Population/Area of Bangkok: 7-10 mil / 1568.7 km2
Population/Area of Berlin: 3.4 mil / 891 km2
Population/Area of London: 8.5 mil / 1577.3 km2

Then you think about the largest "central" park in each city:
Bangkok: Lumpini, 0.56km2
Berlin: Tiergarten, about 2km2
London: Hyde+Kensington Park, 2.5km2

(Most figures from Wiki, some from Google Earth)

My conclusion is that more area can and should be alloted for parks by the Bangkok govt. instead of another shopping center and hotel project. In fact, we could add up all the area of the Bangkok parks you mentioned and it would probably still be smaller than Hyde+Kensington. The Phra Pradaeng forest you mentioned across the river would be nice if it was more accessible, but I wouldn't consider it a city park; although it is quite important acting as the lungs of this city.

You can say that again as well. have you seen recent additions to the skyline as in central world offices, paragon, baiyoke 2 is decent. new buildings in sukhumvit are nice as well. i do agree with some of your assessments, but if you weren't so negative all the time, you'd be alot more pleasant and truthful.

I don't know, Mr. Thainotts. The examples you mentioned above are nice and new projects, but hardly anything that make the Bangkok skyline unique. I am just trying to think... if you take a snapshot of Bangkok at night with all those "nice" highrises on Sukhumvit or Sathorn and show it to someone, would he recognize that it's Bangkok? Is there a definite Bangkok character in it? Or, at the very least, is there even one highrise that tells the world... this is Bangkok? I am trying hard...

BTW, the guy asked for links about urban planning, not a rant.

Very well indeed.

Sartassa, I think you can try to write to the contact at the Urban Design Department of Chulalongkorn University. He should be able to point you to more meaningful resources. Here is the link:
http://www.grad.chula.ac.th/gradcu/page01.asp?id=0255

There is also an Urban Planning Dept in the same university, but no email contact:
http://www.grad.chula.ac.th/gradcu/page01.asp?id=0254

Proposed Bangkok Metro System Map on 2bangkok.com:
http://2bangkok.com/2bangkok/MassTra...Map%206.11.pdf

And on the lighter side, one of the "wonderful" bikelanes of Bangkok:
http://2bangkok.com/2bangkok/buildin...le/cycle.shtml

Originally Posted by zoowatch

so sad...
this looks like a decent thread hijacked by rants (from an unidentified newbie).
i was looking through my computer to help the original poster with his project on bkk city planning.
but i am thinking twice now because i potentially feeding trolls

Mr. Zoowatch, if you are sincere about helping the OP, why even care about a newbie's "rant"? Blaming my "rant" for your own lack of action is laughable and lame.

If my "rant" is unreasonable and unfair, please give examples to prove otherwise; if what you say has merit, I will learn too.

[thainotts]

Originally Posted by cuica

My apologies to the original poster, who indeed asked for URLs to help her project. But I do not think I was going overboard with my opinions re: urban planning in Bangkok. Love it or hate it, but my original point is still: there is so much more that needs to be done in Bangkok regarding urban planning. Isn't that something that the OP deserves to know as well, assuming at least some of my points are valid?

My quality of life has greatly improved over the last 10 years. no one is denying we should stop improving, but don't tell me everything is crap like you did.

Well, I could write a paper on this subject. If you think that traffic is actually pretty good on Sathorn, Silom, Rama IV, Rajadamri, Sukhumvit on rush hour then ignore what I will say below; but if you are like me who thinks that the Bangkok rush hour traffic is quite unproductive for everyone who is driving, then there should be some drastic law to regulate the flow of cars into this area during rush hour. London for example has a road charge for cars going into centre of the city; Singapore makes cars so expensive to own for the average middle class person that many people instead rely on its excellent public transportation; in Japan, one must prove that he has a parking space before he can buy a car (minicars exempt from this law.) I am not sure what Bangkok has: according to one of last year's issue of Bangkok Post's Motoring, each day there are 500 new cars being registered in Bangkok. Obviously people can afford the cars despite the current taxation schemes, so perhaps more drastic measures are needed to regulate the flow of cars into Bangkok centre but none whatsoever exist at the moment.

That isn't exactly "regulation on car use" its "road tax" in my opinion. but let's just say this was a matter of misunderstanding/using different terms. i was thinking along the lines of, you can't drive through this area alone/this road is one-way between 5-9. in that sense, there isn't much difference between bangkok and the world.

Of course if Bangkok had a much better non-bus mass transit system then I probably won't be sitting here "complaining". But it doesn't. The current skytrain and BTS system only offers very partial coverage of the entire area of Bangkok. The good news is that Thai Govt. just received a large dose of money from Japan to build 5 more subway/mass transit lines... so check back with us in a few years and see if we are doing better.

blah blah blah, we all know this. nothing new, moving along.

With gasoline prices rising, I have seen more cyclists on Bangkok roads. Bangkok is a fairly flat city and the govt. should really encourage people to ride bicycles by providing good and safe bike lanes. Bicycles are quiet, don't cause pollution and cheap to ride.

how does one provide good and safe bike lanes? you could be a politician expounding those promises but not deliver. if you take up road space, drivers will get pissed off. if you take up sidewalk space, vendors will get pissed off. (no one seems to care about pedestrians in BKK, btw). where do you put the bicycle lanes?

Raining season is not a problem as it seldom rains continuously (rather strong rain that comes in spouts and sunshine in between) and with the heat the roads get dried quite quickly. Cycling should be encouraged, not discouraged. Shame on Mr. Thainotts for suggesting otherwise.

i did not discourage cycling, but thanks anyways for making a strawman and heaping shame upon poor ol' me. if you've seen the lanes:
1) they're just paint on the sidewalk
2) some politician claims credit and nothing serious is done
3) cyclists get the same shit they got

i'd rather we don't have them as cyclists won't be affected (their lives will still be crap), and no one gets to claim "we're moving forward."

Lots of people including myself commute within the Central Business District where it would be unfeasible or silly to get on the expressway to go less than a few km. So those who insist going by car or bus are stuck with everyone else on the very few major large roads during rush hours.

where are you going to in the CBD? i used to go to school around sathorn and return home near chinatown during these rush hours and it never takes more than 30 minutes, it took 15 mintues, in fact (pre-MRT). i also traveled between chinatown and sathorn via si phraya and its not hours and hours in traffic. no, sir, we are not in the 1990s anymore. stop exaggerating. also, take note of the fact that i do agree with you mainly: bangkok needs some friggin' improvement. but it is not as bad as you make it. i have relatives who work around witthayu and return to chinatown in about half an hour to 45 minutes during rush hour.

btw, most of my travels nowadays in the CBD involve the BTS or MRT in some way shape or form + motorcycle taxis. my quality of life is actually surprisingly good.

its my anecdotal evidence v. your anecdotal evidence

Let's put things in a bit of perspective:

Population/Area of Bangkok: 7-10 mil / 1568.7 km2
Population/Area of Berlin: 3.4 mil / 891 km2
Population/Area of London: 8.5 mil / 1577.3 km2

Then you think about the largest "central" park in each city:
Bangkok: Lumpini, 0.56km2
Berlin: Tiergarten, about 2km2
London: Hyde+Kensington Park, 2.5km2

within the inner ring road:
Suan Lum 360 rai
Suan Chatuchak 190 rai
Suan Rotfai 375 rai
Suan Benjakitti (i was unable to find info on this one, but from estimates it should be about half the size of suan lum): 180 rai
Suan Saranrom (intersection of charoen krung and surawongs) 23 rai
Suan Rommanenat (old prison) 30 rai
Suan benjasiri 29 rai
Suan santiphab 20 rai....and various other "community parks" of approximately 20-30 rai size (~50,000 sq m, 0.05 sq km) *within* the city center

already, there should be about 1.5-2 sq km of "large parks" .... this is not including the "outer" parks such as Suan Luang Ror 9 which are even bigger

source <<< informative site about Parks in BKK, btw (from the BMA)

My conclusion is that more area can and should be alloted for parks by the Bangkok govt. instead of another shopping center and hotel project. In fact, we could add up all the area of the Bangkok parks you mentioned and it would probably still be smaller than Hyde+Kensington. The Phra Pradaeng forest you mentioned across the river would be nice if it was more accessible, but I wouldn't consider it a city park; although it is quite important acting as the lungs of this city.

once again, i agree! parks are good! but your negativity is just putting me off, like i've said before.

I don't know, Mr. Thainotts. The examples you mentioned above are nice and new projects, but hardly anything that make the Bangkok skyline unique. I am just trying to think... if you take a snapshot of Bangkok at night with all those "nice" highrises on Sukhumvit or Sathorn and show it to someone, would he recognize that it's Bangkok? Is there a definite Bangkok character in it? Or, at the very least, is there even one highrise that tells the world... this is Bangkok? I am trying hard...

Baiyoke 2, state tower, banyan tree, empire tower, all season's place. its not that hard. btw, are there any highrises that are characteristic of beijing, berlin, rome, venice, or even los angeles for that matter? no! people remember beijing for the forbidden palace + tiananmen, berlin for the bradenburg, rome for the coliseum, venice for the canals, los angeles for sunset blvd and perhaps the hollywood sign etc etc etc.

If my "rant" is unreasonable and unfair, please give examples to prove otherwise; if what you say has merit, I will learn too.

enough examples? i thought i'd said enough in my first post about your extreme negativity. you're definitely not a troll, IMHO, just someone who is too pessimistic.

[Zoowatch]

Originally Posted by cuica

Mr. Zoowatch, if you are sincere about helping the OP, why even care about a newbie's "rant"? Blaming my "rant" for your own lack of action is laughable and lame.

If my "rant" is unreasonable and unfair, please give examples to prove otherwise; if what you say has merit, I will learn too.

to clear things up.... i wanted to post large images on this thread but i am using the free flickr account which would not allow me to post a full-size image here....

that's why i requested Sartassa to PM me, so that I can send her useful images which I had collected over the years...

i wasn't doing nothing as u said... instead, i was just trying to help... please read original post again....

by the way, I did not say that I cared much about your rant.... what i felt was that Sartassa genuinely needed help and let us not ruin this thread by letting a rant ruin the whole process of offering her assistance.

your remarks on my inaction is not appreciated and i think it's unfair... i think you should apologise.

again, i'd urge you to please read my original post again....

Originally Posted by Zoowatch

hi there...

i have some PDFs and images which may be very useful to your project.
this include the latest version of the city plan...

please identify yourself in a PM and leave me your email

i can send you the image files....

make sure that your email account is capable of accepting a really large image file (i really mean it) something like 5000 x 4000 pixels JPEGs... therefore, no hotmail email address please

one thing i have to tell u in advance... most of the documents from the govt are in thai but the maps might still be useful.

[Zoowatch]

by the way Mr. Cuica

judging by the tone and attitude towards thailand... i feel that you're better off pouring out your general pessimism at www.thaivisa.com.

criticisms of thailand here is welcome, your presence is also welcome, but views should be objective and balanced....

[shrekroma]

To OP about, urban planning in Bangkok

Bangkok have never seriously imposed such plans since the beginning. Chaos in BKK truly exists however, in some aspects, this is called 'diversity'. Zoning/re-planing BKK is so then .. a challenge. After traffic crisis back in mid-late 90, BKK then planned to have a masstransit ( at last ). Because all the buildings are just there and almost no rooms for rails. Plus the subway was way too expensive. So here comes the BTS sky train in the middle of the street. Although it is a short link in CBD area, it's extremely helpful. Very few years later, first BKK subway operated. Yet again for 'not long' distances but considerably presantful for the city. It takes around 10 years to make everyone realize the BKK must have this kind of mass-transit. So gov(s) boasts to have 5-6-10 sub/sky trains in near( hopefully) future.

At the same time as sky train started to run, inner of BKK was truly disaster and ranked tops among traffic-problem city. Gov, with a more clever vision, built a very long freeway call 'outer ring road', in ring shape circle around BKK to prevent everyone coming to jam in BKK. This ongoing project is still underconstruction to these days and the 'second' ( another loop) is considered to be built also when the city expanding.

The concept of rail-inside-road-outside has never been clearer than today. All skycrappers & highrise erects everywhere near BTS, MRT ( subway) line. The condo price is skyrocketting, still considered low for foreigners. Office buildings/ Shopping complex also comes along BTS/MRT, creating a skyhigh cluster linked by mass transit. In some odd ways, gov have done little efforts - 1 skytrain - 1 subway. BKK is truly zoning itself to the right shape.


A stand alone house moves out to outer area because the land price in the city is too high. These people drive ! No doubt.

The obvious threat to BKK caused by nature is flooding problem. BKK once uopn a time called venice of the east. But with poor planning, it's hardly believeable. And since there is not enough drains, flood.


. end of part I .

[cuica]

Originally Posted by thainotts

My quality of life has greatly improved over the last 10 years. no one is denying we should stop improving, but don't tell me everything is crap like you did.

Mr. Thainotts, I feel that you are veering off topic and accusing me of something I didn't do. First, the topic is regarding urban planning in Bangkok, but quality of life does not depend on urban planning alone. There are also other aspects such as healthcare, employment, economy, happiness plus other aspects. To say that your quality of life has improved does not necessarily mean that urban planning is done properly.

Second, I did not say "everything is crap"; and poor urban planning does not always make somebody's life crap. In fact, the middle class in Bangkok has been growing steadily for 20-30 years and they are probably much happier than their predecessors, but again, this measure of happiness does not totally depend on urban planning.

Third, you accuse me of being "negative" and "pessimistic". We are after all talking about urban planning here, not Thai female powerlifting or Thai hospitality. (If you must label me, I'd prefer to be "realistic".) True, in my previous email I am comparing Bangkok with much better urban-planning specimens such as London and Berlin, but that is because when we want to improve we want to compare with those who set the benchmarks. Bangkok might be even considered well planned if you compare it to Mumbai or Manila. But would it be meaningful? Do you want Bangkok to be best of the second/third world cities, or do you want it one day to join the best cities of the first world? For the latter, there is definitely a lot of room for improvement and that is my point.

In any case, you had mentioned "improvements" (in urban planning): but are these improvements just stop-gap short term solutions or does it take into account of the whole picture of population growth, environmental impacts, safety, and aesthetics of the city?

And as for the finer points you raised:

blah blah blah, we all know this. nothing new, moving along.

Yes, I am sure it's old news to you, but perhaps not to our young friend from Germany.

how does one provide good and safe bike lanes? you could be a politician expounding those promises but not deliver. if you take up road space, drivers will get pissed off. if you take up sidewalk space, vendors will get pissed off. (no one seems to care about pedestrians in BKK, btw). where do you put the bicycle lanes?

Space does not come out of thin air. You have to design roads properly - namely, to have some good PLANNING beforehand - to make it wide enough for cars, cyclists and pedestrians before you build the damn thing. Bicycle lanes should not enroach on sidewalks, and should normally be between the sidewalk and the leftmost lane of the road. With the lack of planning then you see bike lanes added as an afterthought on Narathiwat Rd for example and it is dangerous for pedestrians once there is lot of bicycle traffic.

where are you going to in the CBD? i used to go to school around sathorn and return home near chinatown during these rush hours and it never takes more than 30 minutes, it took 15 mintues, in fact (pre-MRT). i also traveled between chinatown and sathorn via si phraya and its not hours and hours in traffic. no, sir, we are not in the 1990s anymore. stop exaggerating. also, take note of the fact that i do agree with you mainly: bangkok needs some friggin' improvement. but it is not as bad as you make it. i have relatives who work around witthayu and return to chinatown in about half an hour to 45 minutes during rush hour.

I take a van to Sathorn from Rama III around 8:30am. We use Narathiwat - it's a straight road and on the average I would say we take 30 minutes to go 3km. So my ave. speed is 6km/hr in the car or taxi or bus. That's almost like walking.

Surely if you know how to beat the road system: use BTS/MRT, find the escape sois, take motorcycle taxis etc it is possible to have a short commute within the CBD. But I urge you to look at the sea of sad faces of those who wait endlessly at bus stops on Silom or by the side of any congested road after work every day. How is the situation shaping up for those who have no choice but the roads?

within the inner ring road:
Suan Lum 360 rai
Suan Chatuchak 190 rai
Suan Rotfai 375 rai
Suan Benjakitti (i was unable to find info on this one, but from estimates it should be about half the size of suan lum): 180 rai
Suan Saranrom (intersection of charoen krung and surawongs) 23 rai
Suan Rommanenat (old prison) 30 rai
Suan benjasiri 29 rai
Suan santiphab 20 rai....and various other "community parks" of approximately 20-30 rai size (~50,000 sq m, 0.05 sq km) *within* the city center

already, there should be about 1.5-2 sq km of "large parks" .... this is not including the "outer" parks such as Suan Luang Ror 9 which are even bigger

once again, i agree! parks are good! but your negativity is just putting me off, like i've said before.

I have only used the example of *one* largest central park in my previous calcuation comparision among Bangkok, Berlin and London (Kensington+Hyde is normally considered one park since they are adjacent to each other.) But since you have included all the parks within the inner ring road in Bangkok, then we should be fair and include all the Royal Parks of London which are most within reach from city centre: and that would be about 5000 acres (20 sq km+) for London vs. 2 sq km for Bangkok. The size of greater Bangkok and London are quite similar, as well as the population, so it would be nice to see Bangkok building more real parks for its denizens so citizens don't have to play football under bridges or dance aerobics in the Tesco Lotus parking lot.

(Source: http://www.royalparks.gov.uk/about/)

Baiyoke 2, state tower, banyan tree, empire tower, all season's place. its not that hard. btw, are there any highrises that are characteristic of beijing, berlin, rome, venice, or even los angeles for that matter? no! people remember beijing for the forbidden palace + tiananmen, berlin for the bradenburg, rome for the coliseum, venice for the canals, los angeles for sunset blvd and perhaps the hollywood sign etc etc etc.

That's right, and people know Thailand from the Grand Palace postcards, anyway. Which is fine. But since this is the skyscraper forum, and people in the Highrise discussion group are so excited about Thai skycrapers, wouldn't it be swell if Bangkok has something that could act as a symbol of its modernity and progress, similar to Petronas Tower of KL or Taipei 101? (Honestly you are not going to suggest Baiyoke 2 again?)

enough examples? i thought i'd said enough in my first post about your extreme negativity. you're definitely not a troll, IMHO, just someone who is too pessimistic.

Again, I'd prefer you say that I am realistic. I haven't even started mentioning about the aspects of urban planning related to environmental problems such as the constant flooding (as Mr. Shrekroma had brought up) or the airport fiasco.

To recap: Urban planning is a long term discipline and require one or just a few visionary master planner(s) who can see projects carry out in at least 10, if not 20 year terms. Great people in many different govt agencies as well as private sectors are required to help carry out the master plan, and there is no way to do so if a govt. is constantly voted out of elections or getting overthrown from time to time. Corruption problems don't help either.

Given so little proper urban planning, Bangkok is still quite a livable city. It's true; otherwise I won't be here myself. But just think of how much better it can even be with proper planning and execution.

[cuica]

Originally Posted by Zoowatch

to clear things up.... i wanted to post large images on this thread but i am using the free flickr account which would not allow me to post a full-size image here....

that's why i requested Sartassa to PM me, so that I can send her useful images which I had collected over the years...

i wasn't doing nothing as u said... instead, i was just trying to help... please read original post again....

by the way, I did not say that I cared much about your rant.... what i felt was that Sartassa genuinely needed help and let us not ruin this thread by letting a rant ruin the whole process of offering her assistance.

your remarks on my inaction is not appreciated and i think it's unfair... i think you should apologise.

again, i'd urge you to please read my original post again....

I had not seen your second post when I wrote my reply. So if indeed you are sincere in helping her, my apologies.

However...
Your first post in this thread called me "a troll" and my words "rant", and don't I also deserve an apology from you? I am here to share my views regarding urban planning in Bangkok, not calling people names. You may not agree with my views, but you cannot stop me from sharing it with others even if I am just a clueless newbie. You can however, point out that I am wrong if you have valid arguments to make. That I won't mind.

[cuica]

Originally Posted by Zoowatch

by the way Mr. Cuica

judging by the tone and attitude towards thailand... i feel that you're better off pouring out your general pessimism at www.thaivisa.com.

criticisms of thailand here is welcome, your presence is also welcome, but views should be objective and balanced....

Mr. Zoowatch,
I don't understand: I wrote some of my unfavorable views (criticisms?) of urban planning in Bangkok and you are using that to judge my "tone and attitude towards Thailand" as a whole?

I'll admit this much: I am passionate about urban planning, and about not adding sugar into my red pork noodles; but I work in Bangkok, pay taxes here and live the daily routine like everyone else. As a foreigner, I may not have the right to vote, but I certainly have equal rights as you on this discussion board (based in Netherlands) to facilitate discussion on a subject and a city I care and know a little about.

And finally: I am not attacking Bangkok per se. I just so happened I was browsing and this topic came up. I'd "rant" - in your words - about the other cities I have lived in, given the chance.

[Zoowatch]

:-)

Khun cuica,

I have read your posts at thaivisa.com and I understand that you've been quite frustrated by the way mass transit and urban planning have been dealt with in this country.

We all are earnestly hoping that the metro exapnsion will take off in mass real soon as much as you have wished. From time to time, we felt impatient and frustrated too (just read any of the mass transit threads here you will know). Therefore, we are not much different from you, so do not think that we are a 'different breed' from you who choose to believe only in the positive side of things.

But, there's a general consensus among us that the situation here is improving. The BMA has been developing more green spaces (albeit quite slowly), the BTS/MRT are being extended, high-density residential / commerical buildings are clustering themselves around mass transit lines, flood prevention facilities (e.g. many deep underground flood tunnels connecting khlongs and rivers, river bank dams and rapid response contingency plans) and green belts flood prevention zoning on the eatern and western belts of Bangkok. Bangkok is slowly waking up and do things right, little by little, but because these problems have been there for so long, and due to the limited fundings, solving issues are never easy and quick (like Singapore for example).

Hence, the Thai community at Skyscrapercity has some reasons to be optimistic of the future despite the doom and gloom period thailand's going through. At the same time, our feet are still firmly in the ground and I know that most of the members here are just realisitc as you are. We were born and bred and schooled and housed in Bangkok for so many year, electing one governor after another, disappointed by politicians, witnessing plans that looked good on paper but never materialised because they were just lips service... Therefore, I'd like say that we know the dark side too and our hopes are always realistic and despite our full awareness to its shortcomings, they are just never overtly expressed...

Most of us here are Thai citizens who has only one place to call home. No matter where we travel to or how much we enjoy living overseas, most of us knows that our future is here, our savings will be spent building a permanent residence here, and our families will always be based right here in Bangkok or elsewhere in Thailand. Unlike the expatriates who can choose to leave and settle down elsewhere as they please, we do not has the luxury of such option to migrate due to our heritage, cultural and familial roots.

hence, I believe that we have a right to wish for the better, hoping for somehting that will improve our lives and defend our desire to keep such optimism alive. At the same time, we never drift too far from reality because we face those kinds of ugly thailand that many expats love to moan and complain about too. But our attitude towards such things are a bit different from many of the expats I've met. Rather than getting hot headed and complain and be angry over at almost every little things at all times, we try to take things as it is and make peace with it if there's little that we can do. At the same time, we look into one another's sense of optimism and make sure that the hopes for a better tomorrow are kept well and alive. You might think that such thing is foolish and our tendency to be less vocal about the nasty stuffs (unlike the expats) is like covering our heads in the sand, but that's just the way our country works... that's the way our society is built upon -- and that's positive living and making peace with things beyond our controls.

I'd like to quote Khun Stickman's advice on living in thailand for expats (which i think is very true).

I quote, "Remember, you are a guest in their country, often uninvited, so you really should do everything that you can to fit in! If you find yourself constantly complaining and criticizing the Thai ways of doing things, perhaps it is time to go home? Having said that, there is nothing wrong with questioning what is going on around you, and of course you should NOT blindly accept everything as being ok! Just remember, and most importantly learn to accept, that this is Thailand, and try as you might, you will never be able to change the Thais and their ways -- and neither should you even try!", unquote.