NZ | Roads + Infrastructure

[Svartmetall]

Originally Posted by minimum chips

I like good roading too. What about a motorway all the way from Wellington or Auckland? and please.. that greeny cleany cliche is like a red rag to a bull 4 me. I think the only reason we lay claim to that is becaues there only 4millions of us so we dont leave too much mess. If NZ has a population 3 times that with our current environmental practices we would have horrific polution.

Hehe, you don't know me very well yet so you'll know that I was very tongue in cheek when I said that (it is also why I " "d it).

[minimum chips]

Ah ha, I see. Very well then. We agree.

[KIWIKAAS]

If the govt and transit really pull there fingers out could be a 2030 scenario.

Blue= motorway
Orange = 4 lane highway or expressway

[GoluBoy]

[jarbury]

Imagine the cost of that proposal though.... we're talking what... $20-30 billion? Just to take possibly the most obvious motorway extension (that is not already planned or under construction), being Puhoi to Warkworth.

In order to reconstruct this road to motorway standard you'd have to do some incredible earthworks (unless you just 4-laned the existing road alignment, which would be pretty unacceptable. What are traffic movements along these other corridors too? I doubt the Picton-Blenheim road has particularly high volumes, Southland's population has been declining for decades, while the Desert Road is actually the quietest part of SH1 in the North Island (excluding north of Kaitaia I think).

With that kind of money you could probably have a high-speed electric rail system throughout NZ.

And think of what oil prices might be in 2030.... in my opinion there's a good chance of having less cars on the road than there are at the moment.

[KIWIKAAS]

Originally Posted by jarbury

Imagine the cost of that proposal though.... we're talking what... $20-30 billion?

Probably. Amounts to about $1 billion a year in road construction

Just to take possibly the most obvious motorway extension (that is not already planned or under construction), being Puhoi to Warkworth.

In order to reconstruct this road to motorway standard you'd have to do some incredible earthworks (unless you just 4-laned the existing road alignment, which would be pretty unacceptable. What are traffic movements along these other corridors too? I doubt the Picton-Blenheim road has particularly high volumes, Southland's population has been declining for decades, while the Desert Road is actually the quietest part of SH1 in the North Island (excluding north of Kaitaia I think).

Picton Blenheim has pretty variable flows. It gets pretty busy southbound with ferry arrivals.
Southland's population is stable at the moment.
Desert Road handles about 3500 vehicles per day. It isnt very busy. It would be a low priority section for 4-laning. You also have to take into account that with a faster, more streamlined SH1 route through the north island the traffic volumes (and especially truck volumes) will increase.

With that kind of money you could probably have a high-speed electric rail system throughout NZ.

And think of what oil prices might be in 2030.... in my opinion there's a good chance of having less cars on the road than there are at the moment.

A high speed rail system throughout NZ would cost far in excess of the roading upgrades and be totally dependant on massive subsidies to keep it running. Very, very expensive.

[jarbury]

Isn't $1 billion a year approximately Transit's current budget? Most of that goes to maintenance, and recently to motorway construction in urban areas that probably need it more than rural highways.

So we'd probably need to double the amount of money spent on roads each year to create such a system.

With New Zealand's population estimated to never actually reach 5 million, and start declining after 2040 I doubt this amount of roading will be required. I see lots of freight returning to rail once deisel becomes super-expensive, and hopefully we have a few more massive windfarms to power an electrified system.

I guess I just feel a reliance on roads is pretty shaky when one looks long-term. Sure there are some big gaps in the rural highway system (like the Kopu Bridge and the roads north of Wellington and Auckland), but NZ isn't a country with 10 million people. If it was I imagine that system would definitely be needed.

[Svartmetall]

Originally Posted by jarbury

Isn't $1 billion a year approximately Transit's current budget? Most of that goes to maintenance, and recently to motorway construction in urban areas that probably need it more than rural highways.

So we'd probably need to double the amount of money spent on roads each year to create such a system.

With New Zealand's population estimated to never actually reach 5 million, and start declining after 2040 I doubt this amount of roading will be required. I see lots of freight returning to rail once deisel becomes super-expensive, and hopefully we have a few more massive windfarms to power an electrified system.

I guess I just feel a reliance on roads is pretty shaky when one looks long-term. Sure there are some big gaps in the rural highway system (like the Kopu Bridge and the roads north of Wellington and Auckland), but NZ isn't a country with 10 million people. If it was I imagine that system would definitely be needed.

I would agree with Kaas's plan IF there was the traffic volume to justify it. Very VERY rarely do I get held up, even during holiday periods, when I drive out of the city. I would say any rural highway expansion beyond the Waikato expressway would be rather fruitless. New Zealand is not a dense country, it's not a country with many commuter cities - like European nations with vast motorway networks attest to.

Again, I'd agree in principle with Jarbury's suggestion about a national high speed railway network; however, I would say that it would be much more prudent to first set up a national rail network in the first place! Grab back everything from Toll and renationalise everything. Then set about connecting close by cities with 160kph trains and then start worrying about the viability of a high speed network which requires far more investment.

There are so many cross country coaches that I believe there is some demand for intercity travel, however, it shouldn't come at a premium.

[jarbury]

If there's to be viable high-speed rail, I think it would really only be commuter-type stuff from Auckland to Hamilton. If some of the towns between Auckland and Hamilton were only 45-60 min from downtown Auckland via rail then this could ease some of the pressures on growth in Auckland (and would provide affordable housing for those who work in Auckland too).

I'd agree that anything faster than 160 kph is 'pie in the sky' stuff though. Even Australia doesn't have anything like that yet.

[Milan Luka]

Oh my bloody god at the very least!! Wellington to Palmerston North corridor and Waipara to Ashburton do need to be linked by motorways. These areas are densely populated by our own local standards and must have sufficient decent transport links because they are growing in population people! Thats it- I feel so strongly about this that I will get out there tomorrow with a shovel, the orange fluoro hazard vest I bought off trademe and a marmite sandwich and few beers and start building the four lane super highway out of Christchurch. I hope to have the Ashburton extension completed by October(weather and year pending). Will keep you posted on progress. Then I will invite all ssc people to Christchurch for the ribbon cutting ceremony. We can do a convoy in our cars, led by Rooty's coolmobile. When this is complete I will single handedly electrify the train link from Christchurch to Ashburton. If we are all still alive- Svarty I want you to take pride of place sitting in the front carriage OK!

[Svartmetall]

Originally Posted by Milan Luka

Oh my bloody god at the very least!! Wellington to Palmerston North corridor and Waipara to Ashburton do need to be linked by motorways. These areas are densely populated by our own local standards and must have sufficient decent transport links because they are growing in population people! Thats it- I feel so strongly about this that I will get out there tomorrow with a shovel, the orange fluoro hazard vest I bought off trademe and a marmite sandwich and few beers and start building the four lane super highway out of Christchurch. I hope to have the Ashburton extension completed by October(weather and year pending). Will keep you posted on progress. Then I will invite all ssc people to Christchurch for the ribbon cutting ceremony. We can do a convoy in our cars, led by Rooty's coolmobile. When this is complete I will single handedly electrify the train link from Christchurch to Ashburton. If we are all still alive- Svarty I want you to take pride of place sitting in the front carriage OK!

If you start electrifying that train, I'll WALK down from Auckland and start building it too!

[KIWIKAAS]

Originally Posted by Svartmetall

I would agree with Kaas's plan IF there was the traffic volume to justify it. Very VERY rarely do I get held up, even during holiday periods, when I drive out of the city. I would say any rural highway expansion beyond the Waikato expressway would be rather fruitless. New Zealand is not a dense country, it's not a country with many commuter cities - like European nations with vast motorway networks attest to.

It's not a vast motorway network. More like what one might expect in Norway or Finland. Nothing special.

Again, I'd agree in principle with Jarbury's suggestion about a national high speed railway network; however, I would say that it would be much more prudent to first set up a national rail network in the first place! Grab back everything from Toll and renationalise everything. Then set about connecting close by cities with 160kph trains and then start worrying about the viability of a high speed network which requires far more investment.

There are so many cross country coaches that I believe there is some demand for intercity travel, however, it shouldn't come at a premium.

A high speed rail connection anywhere in NZ will come at a premium.

It's strange the way on the hand you say that NZ is too thinly populated to justify road expansion (a good road network is the most suitable for less densely populated countries) and then advocate a high speed rail network which inherently requires large population bases and densities to make it work. Seems a tad contradictory.

[Davee]

Originally Posted by Milan Luka

Oh my bloody god at the very least!! Wellington to Palmerston North corridor and Waipara to Ashburton do need to be linked by motorways. These areas are densely populated by our own local standards and must have sufficient decent transport links because they are growing in population people! Thats it- I feel so strongly about this that I will get out there tomorrow with a shovel, the orange fluoro hazard vest I bought off trademe and a marmite sandwich and few beers and start building the four lane super highway out of Christchurch. I hope to have the Ashburton extension completed by October(weather and year pending). Will keep you posted on progress. Then I will invite all ssc people to Christchurch for the ribbon cutting ceremony. We can do a convoy in our cars, led by Rooty's coolmobile. When this is complete I will single handedly electrify the train link from Christchurch to Ashburton. If we are all still alive- Svarty I want you to take pride of place sitting in the front carriage OK!

[Svartmetall]

Originally Posted by KIWIKAAS

It's not a vast motorway network. More like what one might expect in Norway or Finland. Nothing special.



A high speed rail connection anywhere in NZ will come at a premium.

It's strange the way on the hand you say that NZ is too thinly populated to justify road expansion (a good road network is the most suitable for less densely populated countries) and then advocate a high speed rail network which inherently requires large population bases and densities to make it work. Seems a tad contradictory.

No no - I didn't say high speed, if you read through I said:

"Again, I'd agree in principle with Jarbury's suggestion about a national high speed railway network; however, I would say that it would be much more prudent to first set up a national rail network in the first place!"

Since Norway and Finland manage to run a network, I don't think it's THAT far fetched to say that a railway network can't be built. I said high speed could come later if the demand is there.

"close by cities with 160kph trains and then start worrying about the viability of a high speed network which requires far more investment."

160kph is not high speed, it's a standard speed line.

If I could see that there was excessive traffic on the roads (which there rarely is) then I would agree with you. Around Auckland the main bottlenecks seem to be areas which are having roading investment such as up north to Orewa and down south to Hamilton, both of which are gaining duel carriageways at least. A motorway all the way down to Taupo would be excessive to say the least! I could perhaps begin to entertain the idea of a motorway to Tauranga, but even that would be a push as I have never been stuck in traffic out that way.

[MonsieurAquilone]

I agree totally with a national electrified train network. Europe (the seemingly perfect child) was great for me with such ease that came with wanting to travel around. Regular trains going basically everywhere ensured people could go where they needed at a reasonable price and in well-furnished trains. A nation-wide step in this direction can only be good for New Zealand and with more frequency of use, by my logic, development throughout regional centres would also be encouraged. My only fear is that if this were to happen, I do not wish to see a too heavily-'sydincalised' network that can cause chaos to the system should pay issues and the like be raised (France/Italy as examples). Though, considering New Zealand's small population and the crap that the train people already have to deal with now, it seems a future electrified national network is just what we need.

[KIWIKAAS]

The trouble is, is that people go on about Europe but emit the fact that they are refering to countries with far higher population numbers and densities.
Svarty refered to Norway (a European country with comparible population density) as having a high speed system. Norway has 1 high speed line running from Oslo to the airport. A distance of 60km or roughly from downtown Auckland to Mercer. Finland also has a high speed line to Tampere from Helsinki (Auckland to Huntly). In Norway and Finland there is far more road/ motorway contruction as for these countries roads are more practicle in the whole. So for those that would advocate building a high speed line from Auckland to Wellington I challenge to find any such comparison anywhere in the world, because I sure can't think of any at all. Even in the densely populated countries of Europe high speed lines have been shelved in favour of motorway contruction as high speed lines are inherently 1. extremely expensive to build 2. aren't fanancially rendible
I'm not against rail but considering the costs involved in developing high speed lines (far in excess of road costs) as opposed to the benifits I don't think it would work in NZ.

Anyway. I did another wee drawing

Here's what I think they should do with the Mt Wellington Interchange

[Kane007]

I can't see the connection from the Southern to the South eastern east bound?

Bad eyes? Degraded concentration? Don't know, but another gem from the Kaas well!

[jarbury]

A high-res version of that would be nice.

To settle the "high-speed rail" argument, what I originally stated was that the kind of money that would build the motorway/carriageway network Kiwikaas outlined above "could", in my opinion, be better spent building something like a high-speed rail network. Subsequent posts informed me that a high-speed rail network would be MUCH more expensive, so I changed my view to supporting a better 'standard-speed' network around NZ.

I think the biggest point is that expanding our rural motorways would cost huge amounts of money and take an enormously long period of time (how long have they been building the Waikato Expressway now?) and generally current traffic flows aren't high enough to justify this.

I think the higher-volume roads around Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch in particular do need a big upgrade, but generally this is planned or under construction to some extent already. I generally advocate rail investment over road investment because of the current HUGE imbalance in favour of roads, and the fact that with skyrocketing oil prices set to continue into the future, nobody can really say with certainty that anyone will be able to afford to drive to Taupo in 30 years time.

[Milan Luka]

I think enough people are always going to want to drive and I dont think petrol prices increasing will have too much impact. I reckon after initially pulling our car usage back we just get used to it and think nothing of it after a while.

Honest to god Petrol would have to hit $5 a litre before I consider other options. I think that was what I was paying in Norway which doesnt have fantastic high speed train networks believe it or not. Going from downtown Oslo to Gardermoen Airport is a convenient quick and easy trip but costs a bucket load of cash to use no matter what currency you ultimately pay in.

And volume of traffic isnt necessary the only reason to upgrade a road. Safety has to be a big reason. Anyone having driven into Tauranga from Auckland knows the road isnt the most pleasant to drive. Further to my comments re WLG and CHC- add SH2 Auckland-Tauranga to the list for immediate motorwayification.

[jarbury]

There are already plans to upgrade SH29 between Hamilton and Tauranga, to be the main route from Auckland-Tauranga. Although it's longer than SH2, it doesn't have the Karangahake Gorge, which is obviously a pretty major impediment to widening that road. Add the SH29 upgrade to the Waikato Expressway and you should have a pretty damn good road from Auckland to Tauranga.