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Old July 22nd, 2012, 10:44 PM   #2181
cougar1989
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maybe some of you know this map
If you look at this map there were in the 70's plans to connect the western and eastern motorways of Austria with the S11 Pinzgauer Schnellstraße (Knoten Pongau A10 – Lofer) and the S12 Loferer Schnellstraße (Knoten Wörgl A12 – Staatsgrenze bei Unken)
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Old July 23rd, 2012, 03:50 AM   #2182
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The S11 party exists between Bischofshofen and St. Johann im Pongau, Lend - Taxenbach and a rather shot section near Bruck an der Glocknerstraße. Further we got 2 x 1 bypasses without any intersections in Schwarzach (Schönbergtunnel) and Zell am See (Schmittentunnel).

After all it's a pretty decent connection.
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Old July 23rd, 2012, 07:11 AM   #2183
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The major problem for Austria, road-wise, is the lack of a highway-grade connecting between Garmisch-Partkernkirchen, Fussen and Innsbruck in a Y-shaped network.
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Old July 23rd, 2012, 08:32 AM   #2184
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Mountains.
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Old July 23rd, 2012, 09:11 AM   #2185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The major problem for Austria, road-wise, is the lack of a highway-grade connecting between Garmisch-Partkernkirchen, Fussen and Innsbruck in a Y-shaped network.
Another step to partially solve this issue is the project of Tschirganttunnel, that'll connect A12 to B179 near Nassereith - and afaik it's pretty advanced. But what really is a challenge, that's some sort of Fernpass crossing - as many other know, Fernpass was created by a huge landslide thousands of years ago and it would be almost unreal to "bore" a tunnel there. Alternatives might include a tunnel under the side of a nearby mountains but I haven't seen anything more specific on that... Enviromental issues are pretty restrictive as well.
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Old July 23rd, 2012, 02:50 PM   #2186
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Fernpass was created by a huge landslide thousands of years ago and it would be almost unreal to "bore" a tunnel there.
Tunnel boring technology is improving every year. Tunnel boring projects that were nearly impossible ten years ago are merely challenging today. I have no idea what about Fernpass would make tunnel boring difficult.
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Old July 23rd, 2012, 03:02 PM   #2187
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Tunnel boring technology is improving every year. Tunnel boring projects that were nearly impossible ten years ago are merely challenging today. I have no idea what about Fernpass would make tunnel boring difficult.
Soft sediment stone and no, there was no tunnel boring revolution like you described within the last decade. A TBM would just get burried.
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Old July 23rd, 2012, 03:19 PM   #2188
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The major problem for Austria, road-wise, is the lack of a highway-grade connecting between Garmisch-Partkernkirchen, Fussen and Innsbruck in a Y-shaped network.
Indeed, another problem, there is not a single motorway connection to Germany from Kufstein to Bregenz. And although the distances are short, they are still mountain passes.
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Old July 23rd, 2012, 03:33 PM   #2189
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Soft sediment stone and no, there was no tunnel boring revolution like you described within the last decade. A TBM would just get burried.
I didn't write that there has been a revolution in tunnel boring. I wrote that there have been improvements.

The upper limit with current technology for tunnel boring in soft sediment stone is 60 to 100 meters of overburden (that's more or less depth below the surface) depending on the bore diameter and specific conditions. If the tunnel would have to be more than about 100 meters deep and the soil conditions are particularly soft, then tunnel boring is not yet feasible.
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Old July 23rd, 2012, 03:33 PM   #2190
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The locals are not complaining, why should those who live far away? They will not give up tourism for motorways, it is the most important source of income for Tirol.
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Old July 23rd, 2012, 04:32 PM   #2191
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The locals are not complaining, why should those who live far away? They will not give up tourism for motorways, it is the most important source of income for Tirol.
Well that is an exaggeration. The industrial and manufacturing sector easily doubles the numbers of tourism. Yet it is an highly important asset which is far more important then getting faster from Innsbruck to Klagenfurt.
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Old July 23rd, 2012, 05:05 PM   #2192
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There is hardly any industry here in Tirol. GE Capital in Jenbach, a few in Innsbruck, and some timbet trade, that's about it. The A12 functions as a transit route to Italy and commuter traffic in the Innsbruck region, but after Innsbruck it is virtually empty until you get to Bregenz. Here in the Zillertal nobody wants a motorway, that subject is long gone and dusted. And I don't think that people on the Achensee, in Gerlos, Seefeld or Reutte are keen to clear out hotels, cable cars, ski-lifts and wonderful scenery's for the sake of that little traffic that wants to go from Klagenfurt to Innsbruck. The motorway from Germany to Innsbruck via Kufstein is fast enough, and from Garmisch via Seefeld really doesn't take that long.
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Old July 23rd, 2012, 05:19 PM   #2193
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But it's not the question for Zillertal but for all those companies that would prospectively use the motorway for transit and pay millions every year in toll. It's not for the local companies from Tirol, but for many companies from Italy, Germany, Slovenia etc. Their financial interest outweighs the wishes of Zillertal residents. It's not like this area is 3km wide so that a motorway would ruin everything, it's NIMBY hysteria. Just take a look at Germany, it has a web of motorways yet I don't think it's landscapes are ruined. The motorway is same thing as the current road only wider.
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Old July 23rd, 2012, 05:42 PM   #2194
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But it's not the question for Zillertal but for all those companies that would prospectively use the motorway for transit and pay millions every year in toll. It's not for the local companies from Tirol, but for many companies from Italy, Germany, Slovenia etc. Their financial interest outweighs the wishes of Zillertal residents. It's not like this area is 3km wide so that a motorway would ruin everything, it's NIMBY hysteria. Just take a look at Germany, it has a web of motorways yet I don't think it's landscapes are ruined. The motorway is same thing as the current road only wider.
It's one thing to have a motorway on a plain field or in a alpine valley. The impact differs tremendously.

And for the companies: Just-in-time is the way to save money not as fast as possible. Everybody with solid business knowledge knows that.
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Old July 23rd, 2012, 05:45 PM   #2195
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There is hardly any industry here in Tirol. GE Capital in Jenbach, a few in Innsbruck, and some timbet trade, that's about it. The A12 functions as a transit route to Italy and commuter traffic in the Innsbruck region, but after Innsbruck it is virtually empty until you get to Bregenz. Here in the Zillertal nobody wants a motorway, that subject is long gone and dusted. And I don't think that people on the Achensee, in Gerlos, Seefeld or Reutte are keen to clear out hotels, cable cars, ski-lifts and wonderful scenery's for the sake of that little traffic that wants to go from Klagenfurt to Innsbruck. The motorway from Germany to Innsbruck via Kufstein is fast enough, and from Garmisch via Seefeld really doesn't take that long.
Industry in Tyrol:

http://tirol.signon.at/karte.html
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Old July 23rd, 2012, 07:29 PM   #2196
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The locals are not complaining, why should those who live far away? They will not give up tourism for motorways, it is the most important source of income for Tirol.
It is strange that you, who makes a living driving express cargo throughout Western Europe, would bow to NIMBYs that think they still live in the Late Medieval period.

Within the context of EU and large national states, people who live in critical communication routs have just to put up with through traffic, simple as that.

This doesn't mean using Euro 0 trucks without filters or filling river bed and drying them altogether, but people who live in areas that are natural thoroughfares for traffic need to accept the fact they will be "overrun" by passing traffic many times larger than local one.

Especially because without easy access to the valleys entrances in the Alps, those areas would be all economically dead and decaying. Just look at what happens to some rather isolated Italian Alpine valleys that are too steep to fir any sky activity or other tourist activities.
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Old July 23rd, 2012, 09:40 PM   #2197
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You've been on holiday in Mayrhofen recently, you know better than that...
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Old July 23rd, 2012, 10:45 PM   #2198
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Actually, if there were a motorway or an expressway between Villach and Innsbruck, it almost certainly wouldn't be direct, but going via Bischofshofen and Wörgl (like on that old map) and that wouldn't be any faster than through Germany now.
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Old July 23rd, 2012, 11:55 PM   #2199
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it should go trough Italy. Drava valley, in Dobbiaco it would have junction with Autostrada d'Alemagna, and then join Brenner motorway.
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Old July 24th, 2012, 06:04 AM   #2200
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Actually, if there were a motorway or an expressway between Villach and Innsbruck, it almost certainly wouldn't be direct, but going via Bischofshofen and Wörgl (like on that old map) and that wouldn't be any faster than through Germany now.
I would be happy with any improvements to the 164/178 between Wörgl and Bischofshofen.
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