daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old August 19th, 2012, 01:37 PM   #2241
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,587
Likes (Received): 19376

The main cause of smog is due to their beloved mountains. Airmasses remain stagnant in the valley and pollution accumulates for a prolonged amount of time, resulting in smog.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old August 19th, 2012, 02:05 PM   #2242
mcarling
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,605
Likes (Received): 491

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The main cause of smog is due to their beloved mountains. Airmasses remain stagnant in the valley and pollution accumulates for a prolonged amount of time, resulting in smog.
Right, so the only solution is to reduce pollution. The most cost-effective way to reduce vehicular pollution has been programmes to buy up old dirty gas-guzzlers and take them off the road forever.

I suppose Austria could set truck tolls based on Euro 0, Euro I, Euro II, Euro III, Euro IV, or Euro V compliance. That might help lead to older dirtier trucks being replaced by newer cleaner trucks.
mcarling no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2012, 02:12 PM   #2243
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,587
Likes (Received): 19376

I assume Austria also "imports" quite a big of emissions from neighboring countries. In small countries like in Europe, air quality is influenced by foreign sources. The Netherlands often has degraded air quality with easterly winds during the winter, coming from sources in the Ruhr area.

That's why you need an EU-wide approach to air quality. Local solutions such as lower speed limits or cleaner municipal vehicles do not have enough effect, except for inner city streets.

But the most important thing is to recognize the air is nowadays cleaner than since the begin of industrialization.

Truck tolls in Austria are already based on the Euro emission classes. The tolls are higher for older generation euro vehicles, giving an incentive to buy newer trucks. The downside is that this is obstructive to small businesses meaning some trucks will have to be written off much sooner than anticipated.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2012, 02:25 PM   #2244
mcarling
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,605
Likes (Received): 491

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I assume Austria also "imports" quite a big of emissions from neighboring countries. In small countries like in Europe, air quality is influenced by foreign sources. The Netherlands often has degraded air quality with easterly winds during the winter, coming from sources in the Ruhr area.

That's why you need an EU-wide approach to air quality. Local solutions such as lower speed limits or cleaner municipal vehicles do not have enough effect, except for inner city streets.
I agree with you regarding speed limits, but replacing old dirty municipal vehicles with cleaner vehicles is often cost-effective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Truck tolls in Austria are already based on the Euro emission classes. The tolls are higher for older generation euro vehicles, giving an incentive to buy newer trucks.
Excellent! Are other european countries doing the same?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The downside is that this is obstructive to small businesses meaning some trucks will have to be written off much sooner than anticipated.
I don't see a downside here. Polluters should pay the full costs of pollution. If they don't, everyone else bears the costs of pollution, which is subsidizing pollution.
mcarling no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2012, 02:27 PM   #2245
x-type
con los terroristas
 
x-type's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bjelovar [HR]
Posts: 13,465
Likes (Received): 3437

i don't know about tolls, but i know about international authorizations (CEMT) for Austria - beside Italy they have one of the most strict laws for them. with limited number of authorization per carrier they have also been enforcing Ro-La transportation (in my case Maribor - Wels, but there are more routes to run through Austria). Austrians are specialy restrictive for Euro3 (and less) trucks.
on the other side - D, B, NL have almost none restrictions, they give as many authorizations as you want.
__________________
Svaki dan sanjam autobahn...
x-type no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2012, 02:46 PM   #2246
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,587
Likes (Received): 19376

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
I don't see a downside here. Polluters should pay the full costs of pollution. If they don't, everyone else bears the costs of pollution, which is subsidizing pollution.
Many small business have just one old truck that does the job. There were significant issues with this in Berlin when they banned even relatively new trucks with the environmental zones. Though these old trucks do pollute substantially more than the latest generation of truck engines.

The problem with putting a price tag on emissions is that it's very politicized. It's impossible to calculate the cost of pollution and redistribute that cost to every polluter. Another issue is that transportation tends to be the hardest hit while they generally are responsible for 20% of the emissions of various pollutants.

Urban sources, industry and agriculture also substantially add to mix of local pollutants, but politicians and activists tend to aim disproportionally on road transportation.

The Brenner Autobahn carries about 30.000 vehicles per day, but considering modern cars emit over 100 times less than 25-year old cars, it is currently much cleaner than it was in the 1970s, when basically 300 vehicles per day could emit as much NOx and PM10 as 30.000 today. We've come a long way, but it isn't completed yet.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2012, 04:02 PM   #2247
mcarling
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,605
Likes (Received): 491

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Many small business have just one old truck that does the job.
I don't see that as a reason why everyone else should effectively pay subsidies to those small businesses for polluting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The problem with putting a price tag on emissions is that it's very politicized. It's impossible to calculate the cost of pollution and redistribute that cost to every polluter.
That something cannot be done perfectly does not seem to me a strong argument to avoid doing it -- especially when the benefits of doing it are great and the costs of not doing it are great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Another issue is that transportation tends to be the hardest hit while they generally are responsible for 20% of the emissions of various pollutants.

Urban sources, industry and agriculture also substantially add to mix of local pollutants, but politicians and activists tend to aim disproportionally on road transportation.
I hope it's obvious that I'm not advocating continuing subsidies for fixed-point pollution. I advocate internalizing all pollution externalities -- not only for transport.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The Brenner Autobahn carries about 30.000 vehicles per day, but considering modern cars emit over 100 times less than 25-year old cars, it is currently much cleaner than it was in the 1970s, when basically 300 vehicles per day could emit as much NOx and PM10 as 30.000 today. We've come a long way, but it isn't completed yet.
Yes, which is exactly why making modern standards even stricter will accomplish little compared to the huge benefits available from taking the old cars, trucks, and buses off the roads.
mcarling no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2012, 04:11 PM   #2248
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,587
Likes (Received): 19376

There was an interesting government report in the Netherlands which stated that oldtimers constitute 1% of the urban traffic, but are responsible for 10% of particle (PM10) and 20% of nitrogen dioxide (NOx) emissions. A car is considered an oldtimer in the Netherlands if it's over 25 years old. A diesel car from that age emits 80 times more particles and NOx than a modern diesel car.

The weird thing is that oldtimers get a tax break. Owners don't have to pay the annual road tax (which can save you over € 1.200 per year if you have a diesel oldtimer). There is debate whether to continue to exclude oldtimers from the road tax, because import of pre 1987 cars increased substantially in recent years. These "oldtimers" are used for daily transportation, thereby negating the improvement made in air quality in recent years, especially in urban areas.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2012, 08:57 PM   #2249
Surel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,702
Likes (Received): 2154

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The weird thing is that oldtimers get a tax break. Owners don't have to pay the annual road tax (which can save you over € 1.200 per year if you have a diesel oldtimer). There is debate whether to continue to exclude oldtimers from the road tax, because import of pre 1987 cars increased substantially in recent years. These "oldtimers" are used for daily transportation, thereby negating the improvement made in air quality in recent years, especially in urban areas.
What about a tuned oldtimer? Do they have a tax break as well? New motor, suspension etc... and still tax free?
Surel no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2012, 09:35 PM   #2250
keber
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Slovenia
Posts: 9,878
Likes (Received): 1364

New motor on oldtimer? That does not exist (except in total and very expensive car overhaul)
keber no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 21st, 2012, 11:06 AM   #2251
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,199
Likes (Received): 766

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Truck tolls in Austria are already based on the Euro emission classes. The tolls are higher for older generation euro vehicles, giving an incentive to buy newer trucks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
Excellent! Are other european countries doing the same?
Switzerland:

Euro 6: 2.05 cent CHF/tkm or 68 eurocent per km for a 40 t truck or 204 € for Basel-Chiasso
Euro 4-5: 2.28 cent CHF/tkm or 76 eurocent per km for a 40 t truck or 228 € for Basel-Chiasso
Euro 3: 2.69 cent CHF/tkm or 90 eurocent per km for a 40 t truck or 270 € for Basel-Chiasso
Euro 1-2 and less: 3.10 cent CHF/tkm or 103 eurocent per km for a 40 t truck or 309 € for Basel-Chiasso
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 21st, 2012, 03:17 PM   #2252
bozata90
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Sofia
Posts: 355
Likes (Received): 50

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
Excellent! Are other european countries doing the same?
All of them. There is an obligation (EU Directive) to introduce tolling systems that allow the less-polluting vehicles to pay less.
bozata90 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 21st, 2012, 03:42 PM   #2253
sotonsi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,547

Couldn't that simply be called "fuel duty" or something? Taxes you on usage of the road network and pollution.

I guess something has to justify the Galileo satellite system...
sotonsi está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old August 21st, 2012, 04:06 PM   #2254
MattiG
Registered User
 
MattiG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Espoo FI
Posts: 1,798
Likes (Received): 614

Quote:
Originally Posted by bozata90 View Post
All of them. There is an obligation (EU Directive) to introduce tolling systems that allow the less-polluting vehicles to pay less.
Would like to see a link to such a directive.
MattiG no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 21st, 2012, 04:28 PM   #2255
Tauernautobahn
Registered User
 
Tauernautobahn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Salzburg
Posts: 96
Likes (Received): 2

S10

I do not know if this was already posted but on 4th of August the first part of S10 close to Unterweitersdorf was opened to traffic. However it is just a little stretch of approx 1 km.

Pictures can be found here:

http://www.aktivnews.de/z_einsatzbil....php?album=880

Last edited by Tauernautobahn; August 21st, 2012 at 04:34 PM.
Tauernautobahn no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 21st, 2012, 04:28 PM   #2256
mcarling
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,605
Likes (Received): 491

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauernautobahn View Post
I drove from Brno to Vienna yesterday. The section from Schrick to Poysbrunn junction is the most wretched of the journey. The CZ side is not so bad. I think they're right to build this next.
mcarling no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 21st, 2012, 07:46 PM   #2257
KingNick
Make Wu'bar Great Again
 
KingNick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,035
Likes (Received): 8709

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
Would like to see a link to such a directive.
There you go:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...08:0023:EN:PDF
KingNick no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 21st, 2012, 08:07 PM   #2258
MattiG
Registered User
 
MattiG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Espoo FI
Posts: 1,798
Likes (Received): 614

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingNick View Post
The Eurovignette directive authorizes the member countries to introduce kilometre-based fees but it does not enforce them to do so. It applies only to vehicles over 3500 kg.
MattiG no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 21st, 2012, 10:27 PM   #2259
mcarling
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,605
Likes (Received): 491

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingNick View Post
This limits the powers that EU member states would otherwise have to use "polluter pays" pricing by limiting the price for the most egregious polluters to not more than double the price for the cleanest vehicles. That's just stupid (or pro-pollution).
mcarling no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 21st, 2012, 10:44 PM   #2260
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,587
Likes (Received): 19376

The 2013 vignettes are unveiled. It will be dark pink vignettes and the prices went up 3.6%, more than in other recent years:



ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
austria

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium