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Old September 3rd, 2012, 09:49 PM   #2301
Road_UK
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I'm discussing his ideas.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 09:55 PM   #2302
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We can do that in a civilized way... even with Suburbanist.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 09:56 PM   #2303
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When things get contentious and tempers flare, it's important to discuss the ideas without any reference to the persons involved.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 10:06 PM   #2304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Our existing infrastructure with the A12 and A13 is just fine, as well as the roads over the Fernpass, Scharnitz and Achensee.
A12 & A13 are fine, but the Fernpass route is highly inadequate. It is an obvious missing link in the European motorway network that is frequently congested both in winter and summer.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 10:09 PM   #2305
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The matter of fact is: Tyrol is no more special than any other valley where current existing highway runs! And pretty much all of them have been built over last 60 years.

Which brings a question: why can people travelling from - say - Innsbruck to Bolzano can have a nice highway at their use, whereas someone travelling from Innsbruck to Kempen must put up with a precarious local road that slows down traffic and create massive traffic jams?

That is my whole point: highways that already exist were built of a decision to build an interconnected highway network. They are not ancient structures existing there since known history of human occupation. For economic and political reasons, the rhythm of completing such links has been slowed down, but it doesn't mean suddenly people along the Fernpaß are more special, or they way of life more important, than those live along the Brenner route.

Moreover, this idea that highways "destroy a way of life" are hugely and vastly blown out of proportion. Because they are mostly segregated structures, other than a moderate visual impact on the immediate vicinity of their ROW (easy to camouflage with vegetation as in Germany), with modern clean-energy vehicles there is few impacts left on nearby areas.

Whatever infrastructure is going to be built WILL affect some people somewhere in some way. And this piecemeal approach of making certain places "extremely unique to be disturbed" is morally wrong, in my opinion, because those places usually get already a lot of modern comforts (such as electricity high-lines, pipelines, railways, access to the global markets) that are just there because the infrastructure was built before NIMBY-ism had risen.

So if a valley it "too cute" for a motorway, than all valleys are too cute for any type of highway-grade road or rail transportation and people should resort to ride mules over trails as the primary mean of communication across the Alps. Which is obviously a ridiculous proposition nobody would take seriously, but is also the logic implication of extending the reasoning "this area is too [special/unique/pristine/valued by locals] to bear the burnt of any infrastructure".

This bears resemblance with a related debate: areas whose voters are heavily in favor of "green energy", richer than average for their country, willing to pay the financial costs - but God forbids a wind turbine anywhere on my light of sight on my favorite beach.
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YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 11:11 PM   #2306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Read his posts. It comes from the same guy that is willing to destroy parts of the most wonderful ancient historic city centres of Italy for the sake of a few roads, and you crossed swords with him as well on that subject. And Tyrol is a large area that relies on beauty and tourism.
I didn't agree with him on the Italian subject; this doesn't mean I have to disagree with him all the time. As a matter of fact, I didn't say I agree with him this time, because it's not important. I just don't like the "Tyrol-is-more-beautiful-than-other-countries-so-go-hug-a-tree" and "people-here-is-more-important-than-elsewhere" attitudes.

Roads can be built with all care and respect for the environment everyone deserves, so nobody needs to put out their guns and "repeal the invaders". There is a motorway in our beautiful Adige valley, it is fundamental, and nobody whines. It didn't ruin the landscape and everybody's happy. It doesn't mean it is less important or less beautiful than your beloved Tyrolean valleys.

As a matter of fact I don't care if those Austrian links are really missing or not.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 08:47 AM   #2307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist
The matter of fact is: Tyrol is no more special than any other valley where current existing highway runs! And pretty much all of them have been built over last 60 years.

Which brings a question: why can people travelling from - say - Innsbruck to Bolzano can have a nice highway at their use, whereas someone travelling from Innsbruck to Kempen must put up with a precarious local road that slows down traffic and create massive traffic jams?

That is my whole point: highways that already exist were built of a decision to build an interconnected highway network. They are not ancient structures existing there since known history of human occupation. For economic and political reasons, the rhythm of completing such links has been slowed down, but it doesn't mean suddenly people along the Fernpaß are more special, or they way of life more important, than those live along the Brenner route.

Moreover, this idea that highways "destroy a way of life" are hugely and vastly blown out of proportion. Because they are mostly segregated structures, other than a moderate visual impact on the immediate vicinity of their ROW (easy to camouflage with vegetation as in Germany), with modern clean-energy vehicles there is few impacts left on nearby areas.

Whatever infrastructure is going to be built WILL affect some people somewhere in some way. And this piecemeal approach of making certain places "extremely unique to be disturbed" is morally wrong, in my opinion, because those places usually get already a lot of modern comforts (such as electricity high-lines, pipelines, railways, access to the global markets) that are just there because the infrastructure was built before NIMBY-ism had risen.

So if a valley it "too cute" for a motorway, than all valleys are too cute for any type of highway-grade road or rail transportation and people should resort to ride mules over trails as the primary mean of communication across the Alps. Which is obviously a ridiculous proposition nobody would take seriously, but is also the logic implication of extending the reasoning "this area is too [special/unique/pristine/valued by locals] to bear the burnt of any infrastructure".

This bears resemblance with a related debate: areas whose voters are heavily in favor of "green energy", richer than average for their country, willing to pay the financial costs - but God forbids a wind turbine anywhere on my light of sight on my favorite beach.
It depends how and where you put it. On the Fernpass route it may have very little impact. Via Scharnitz it would mean the full destruction of Seefeld and Scharnitz. I obviously don't know the area as well as Mayrhofen where I live, but you said that you are willing to railroad the locals out if they want to protect their property and way of life, and basically wipe an entire community out and relocate them if a road was to be built over it. That's disgusting. I live in Mayrhofen, you were here recently, so you should have a pretty good idea of the impact, if there were plans to build another link to Italy through the Zillertal. And its not up to you to decide, its not even about Tyrolians, but if you'd propose a motorway through the Frisian town of Workum, we would be having this discussion on the Dutch thread.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 08:48 AM   #2308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle

A12 & A13 are fine, but the Fernpass route is highly inadequate. It is an obvious missing link in the European motorway network that is frequently congested both in winter and summer.
Only on swap-Saturday's, same as the A12 and the Zillertal Bundestrasse.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 08:52 AM   #2309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza

I didn't agree with him on the Italian subject; this doesn't mean I have to disagree with him all the time. As a matter of fact, I didn't say I agree with him this time, because it's not important. I just don't like the "Tyrol-is-more-beautiful-than-other-countries-so-go-hug-a-tree" and "people-here-is-more-important-than-elsewhere" attitudes.

Roads can be built with all care and respect for the environment everyone deserves, so nobody needs to put out their guns and "repeal the invaders". There is a motorway in our beautiful Adige valley, it is fundamental, and nobody whines. It didn't ruin the landscape and everybody's happy. It doesn't mean it is less important or less beautiful than your beloved Tyrolean valleys.

As a matter of fact I don't care if those Austrian links are really missing or not.
I have implemented my answer to you in my reply to Suburbanist.
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Old September 6th, 2012, 02:18 PM   #2310
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I'm thinking about on this weekend to drive on the Großglockner Hochalpenstraße and Felbertauernstraße. Any tips? What to do, what not to miss?
I thought about this roundtrip http://goo.gl/maps/70mFF
Or maybe this? http://goo.gl/maps/A6YzK

I would have to stay somewhere overnight, maybe Lienz?

For the second day I could also consider driving somewhere in Italy, I've never been in Italy, but I'm not sure if there is time or if there is something nice close to Lienz.
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Old September 6th, 2012, 02:23 PM   #2311
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You could cross the border from Lienz into Italy, and follow the valley until you get to Brixen/Bressanone. You have been in Italy then, and from there onto the A13 towards Innsbruck. After Innsbruck it will take you 3 hours to get home.
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Old September 6th, 2012, 02:41 PM   #2312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
You could cross the border from Lienz into Italy, and follow the valley until you get to Brixen/Bressanone. You have been in Italy then, and from there onto the A13 towards Innsbruck. After Innsbruck it will take you 3 hours to get home.
Yeah, but then, I won' drive on the Felbertauernstraße.
Never mind, I still have time to drive to Itlay, maybe on a longer trip 4 days or so, not just 2 weekend days.

The first part of my message is more important for now .
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Old September 8th, 2012, 12:17 AM   #2313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
And you don't even live here, you are not a voter here, so basically, you can go to hell with your sick ideas.
+1
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Old September 8th, 2012, 11:03 AM   #2314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
I'm thinking about on this weekend to drive on the Großglockner Hochalpenstraße and Felbertauernstraße. Any tips? What to do, what not to miss?
Don't miss the 2 detours on the Hochalpenstrasse to Edelweissspitze and Franz Josephs Höhe, which are very nice viewpoints. Also, don't miss the church in Heiligenblut on the south side of the mountains. It appears in nearly every postcard with the Grossglockner in the background. if you go to Berchtesgaden, you can take the bus up to Hitler's retreat at Kehlstein and you could take the boat on the Königssee to Sankt Bartholomä church. If you have time, you could also take a detour to Kaprun and take the cable car to Kitzsteinhorn (again, nice views).
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Old September 10th, 2012, 01:29 AM   #2315
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Originally Posted by Tepes View Post
Don't miss the 2 detours on the Hochalpenstrasse to Edelweissspitze and Franz Josephs Höhe, which are very nice viewpoints. Also, don't miss the church in Heiligenblut on the south side of the mountains. It appears in nearly every postcard with the Grossglockner in the background. if you go to Berchtesgaden, you can take the bus up to Hitler's retreat at Kehlstein and you could take the boat on the Königssee to Sankt Bartholomä church. If you have time, you could also take a detour to Kaprun and take the cable car to Kitzsteinhorn (again, nice views).
Uh, I realized later I missed the turn to Edelweissspitze, and it was getting late and I still had some km to drive to get to the accommodation. It was a very quick planned trip, so I didn't have enough time to plan everything.
But I will definitively return, and visit everything I think it will be next year, since I heard the weather will get cold, and the snow peak will sink to 1600m.
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Old September 11th, 2012, 10:58 AM   #2316
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Knoten Villach

On my way to the Adriatic coast 2 weeks ago I recognized that they changed signage at Knoten Villach at A10 southbound from this
to that


Obviously they switched from one extreme to another. While the old signage contained too much information and was confusing in a way, the new one seems a bit too simple to me. IMO it would have been better like this:
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Old September 11th, 2012, 11:57 AM   #2317
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good work
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Old September 11th, 2012, 12:43 PM   #2318
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Don't think so. It would be smarter to show cities, not ovals. You see Budapest, Bratislava and Praha around Wien, not just ovals.
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Old September 11th, 2012, 01:13 PM   #2319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauernautobahn View Post
On my way to the Adriatic coast 2 weeks ago I recognized that they changed signage at Knoten Villach at A10 southbound from this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Villach_4.JPG
to that
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...en_Villach.JPG

Obviously they switched from one extreme to another. While the old signage contained too much information and was confusing in a way, the new one seems a bit too simple to me. IMO it would have been better like this: http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg37/...ng&res=landing
I agree with you. The old sign on the left is terribly confusing when one has only about a second to take in the information. In cases where a driver should choose between two (or more) lanes, the information should never be combined onto one sign. Your final suggestion is the best among these.
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Old September 11th, 2012, 08:57 PM   #2320
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Don't think so. It would be smarter to show cities, not ovals. You see Budapest, Bratislava and Praha around Wien, not just ovals.

I meant tauernautobahns own design
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