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Old September 28th, 2012, 09:34 PM   #2421
mcarling
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The right to free speech in a democracy does not extend to bombing buildings, blocking roads, or shooting children. The latter is terrorism. If they have something to say, they can carry picket signs or pay for advertising. They have no right to interfere with the rights of others, such as the right to freely use public roads in compliance with the law.
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Old September 28th, 2012, 09:39 PM   #2422
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Blocking a road is not terrorism.

(beside that this kind of blocks happens once in a lifetime, so it's perfectly supportable by the economy)
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Old September 28th, 2012, 09:51 PM   #2423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
The right to free speech in a democracy does not extend to bombing buildings, blocking roads, or shooting children. The latter is terrorism. If they have something to say, they can carry picket signs or pay for advertising. They have no right to interfere with the rights of others, such as the right to freely use public roads in compliance with the law.
Freedom of speech > nothing for a long time > interests of those using the Autobahn.
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Old September 28th, 2012, 10:02 PM   #2424
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The local government apparently allowed to deliberately paralyze the regional road network while it could be avoided. That sounds like bad governance to me, and whether this happens frequently or rarely is not relevant.
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Old September 28th, 2012, 10:07 PM   #2425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
The right to free speech in a democracy does not extend to bombing buildings, blocking roads, or shooting children. The latter is terrorism. If they have something to say, they can carry picket signs or pay for advertising. They have no right to interfere with the rights of others, such as the right to freely use public roads in compliance with the law.
I don't know where you live but there are quite some demonstrations that are blocking roads. Basically most of them do. What sense do demonstrations make when nobody recognizes them?
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Old September 28th, 2012, 10:13 PM   #2426
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I wonder, are there really so awful living conditions for locals to justify Autobahn closure? I doubt - usually this is more or less only local politics.
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Old September 28th, 2012, 10:19 PM   #2427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The local government apparently allowed to deliberately paralyze the regional road network while it could be avoided. That sounds like bad governance to me, and whether this happens frequently or rarely is not relevant.
It's not the local government that allows such things but the local administration. They just check if there are laws broken by the actions. In this case there aren't any broken laws, so it's allowed.

It does not really have anything to do with any government issue but with basic rights of citizens. Just because you or even the majority of people don't like the idea of blocking roads you cannot take them the the demonstraters' right to do so if it is legal.

Personally I don't have anything against transit in Tyrol or elsewhere but at least I can understand them a bit. It indeed is not really fine to have so much traffic in narrow valleys because the narrowness causes more noise as if it would be in a big plain. Additionally the traffic immissions exceed the legal health limits by far.
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Old September 28th, 2012, 10:20 PM   #2428
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But would it have been allowed if it was a subway in Vienna or a major railway? If you have a group of protestors, could you go to the local administration and shut down a railway or airport for 24 hours?
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Old September 28th, 2012, 10:30 PM   #2429
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
But would it have been allowed if it was a subway in Vienna or a major railway? If you have a group of protestors, could you go to the local administration and shut down a railway or airport for 24 hours?
I'm sure it would be. As long as there are other alternatives (e.g. buses) I can't imagine they would forbid it. It is just important to tell the administration that you do that. If not, then it's illegal.

Besides they didn't block the motorway for 24 hours. Just 12.
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Old September 28th, 2012, 10:34 PM   #2430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauernautobahn View Post
Besides they didn't block the motorway for 24 hours. Just 12.
And leaving non-motorway alternatives. I think congestion was comparable to the Tauern tunnel queues.
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Old September 28th, 2012, 10:38 PM   #2431
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Yes, only 2 - 3 hours delays, no big deal... Perfectly normal.
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Old September 28th, 2012, 10:54 PM   #2432
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del.

Last edited by Tauernautobahn; September 28th, 2012 at 11:03 PM.
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Old September 28th, 2012, 10:58 PM   #2433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The local government apparently allowed to deliberately paralyze the regional road network while it could be avoided. That sounds like bad governance to me, and whether this happens frequently or rarely is not relevant.
Demonstrations may only be disallowed in Austria if public safety and order are threatened by such. In any other case disallowing a demonstration is unconstitutional. I just can repeat myself. Freedom of speech and freedom of assembly are way more important legally protected interests than anything traffic related. They're losing two hours simply is no argument here.
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Old September 28th, 2012, 11:02 PM   #2434
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+1
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Old September 28th, 2012, 11:04 PM   #2435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Blocking a road is not terrorism.

(beside that this kind of blocks happens once in a lifetime, so it's perfectly supportable by the economy)
But I only blew up one school! I only did it once! It wasn't terrorism because I don't blow up a school every week. It was just a once in a lifetime event.
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Old September 28th, 2012, 11:19 PM   #2436
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It happens every year. It's no big deal. Belgium had to deal with slow moving HGV traffic this week. A traditional thing also known in the Netherlands and France.
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Old September 28th, 2012, 11:23 PM   #2437
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Murder and interruption of public services* are both illegal actions but absolutely in no way comparable.

*beside the fact that apparently in Austria this isn't even legally a crime, at least during manifestations
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Old September 28th, 2012, 11:43 PM   #2438
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Blocking a street is no criminal offense, all you can get is an administrative penalty. However the Constitutional Court constant jurisdiction says that those penalties mustn't be executed in cases where people have just been living up to their constitutional rights. The administrative offense in such a case is an unavoidable side effect.

Blocking the street for the sake of blocking a street is not allowed though.
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Old September 29th, 2012, 01:46 AM   #2439
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
But I only blew up one school! I only did it once! It wasn't terrorism because I don't blow up a school every week. It was just a once in a lifetime event.
Blowing up a school can cost people who were minding their own business their lives. Flying a plane into a skyscraper costs people who were minding their own business their lives. Blocking a highway, not so much.

There's terrorism, and there's inconveniencing people.
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Old September 29th, 2012, 03:18 AM   #2440
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There is b.s. about this railway option.

The same extremists have been opposing the "Brennero Base Tunnel" for at least 11 years since the idea was first seriously considered as an immediate-realization project.

The present-day railway has several limitations on train length, especially north of Bolzano, because of steep grades and tight curves (it follows the river, like the Autostrada del Brennero). Trains must be split or else they need helpers, both being unacceptable procedures for a fast cargo railway with speeds higher than those of trucking on the corridor.

So if they were half-serious about using trains for Germany <=> Italy traffic, they wouldn't be also opposing the construction of a high-performance link across the pass.
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