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Old February 2nd, 2013, 10:45 PM   #2681
mcarling
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Originally Posted by pumpikatze View Post
Did you experience such a lot of racism during your year of living in Austria? If yes, I honestly regret that.
I cannot say that I suffered much racism during my year in Vienna but I saw others who suffered. As I wrote above, some Austrians I know are very decent and reasonable.
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Old February 2nd, 2013, 11:11 PM   #2682
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Originally Posted by pumpikatze View Post
I think we are both wrong.
It has to be that way: At the very moment you are entering the tram you already need to have a validated ticket. Entering without ticket already would be fined.
Using the tram for searching for a place where you can buy a ticket of course would be fined then.

I dont say I´d find that good, but ASFINAG seems to like the idea (and it is probably the only way to handle a Vignette-system).

Its entering tram without ticket because you did not find place where you could buy it. Once in tram you see there is vending machine, with advert come and buy a ticket. But once you come to that machine there is conductor that catches your hand with saying, you are a free rider. He is right in the literrary meaning of the law, however not in the sense of the law.
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Old February 2nd, 2013, 11:20 PM   #2683
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Nah, the vending machine cant be inside the train since the gas station is besides the autobahn but not on the autobahn.
Or the vending machine inside the tram is just for buying tickets in advance for other rides in the future but not meant to be used for the current ride.
One rule is fixed: Dont enter the tram without validated ticket. And they dont tell you that rule when you are already inside the tram but when you are still outside waiting for it.
And then they are waiting next to the ticket machine for people who buy tickets and then validate them directly afterwards. They know then that person entered the tram without already validated ticket and punish him
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 01:35 AM   #2684
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Originally Posted by pumpikatze View Post
Nah, the vending machine cant be inside the train since the gas station is besides the autobahn but not on the autobahn.
Or the vending machine inside the tram is just for buying tickets in advance for other rides in the future but not meant to be used for the current ride.
One rule is fixed: Dont enter the tram without validated ticket. And they dont tell you that rule when you are already inside the tram but when you are still outside waiting for it.
And then they are waiting next to the ticket machine for people who buy tickets and then validate them directly afterwards. They know then that person entered the tram without already validated ticket and punish him
I know trams with vending machines as well as busses.

The rest area is as well paid area and you can't enter it from anywhere else than the motorway. It is part of the motorway.

But the tram analogy is bit flawed, because the ticket validator is also inside the tram and in the contract is that you have to validate without delay after you enter, whereas in the asfinag contract would be that you can enter ony with already placed vignette.

Precise contract text would be needed though.
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 11:04 AM   #2685
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Yes, of course there are vending machines inside trams. I just meant it cant be the case if we use the tram-story as an example for the ASFINAG-thing.
The tram analogy is a bit flawed, of course.
Entering the autobahn without validated ticket already is a reason for fining somebody whilst it is clear you are entering a tram with a ticket and validate it directly after entering the tram.
I think the ASFINAG points out clearly it is forbidden to even use the autobahn without vignette. Even if you cant find a place to buy one you aren´t allowed to use it. Call it unfair, but is it´s like that.

The only thing I am complaining about is the absolutely lack of mercy, doesnt matter which situation. I was told once by an ASFINAG-officer, when they forced me to pay: "Everybody´s got a good story to tell. In the end we would fine nobody if we would believe everybody or show mercy."

My conclusion: It is not possible to deal with ASFINAG-officers. Once they catch you on the autobahn without vignette or they just know you already used it before you tried to buy one, they will definitely make you pay. That is really unfair in case you had no bad intentions. To stop discussions about it they should open toll stations on the autobahn.

One final look at the past (maybe that´s vladjack):



And now again: Some more pictures of Austrian highways, please
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Last edited by pumpikatze; February 3rd, 2013 at 12:39 PM.
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 11:10 AM   #2686
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I don't think there is a valid reason to enter an Austrian Autobahn without a vignette. Service areas in all neighboring countries sell them way before the border, and getting closer to Austria there are plenty of signs to warn you. And on the A12 there is vignette free travel until Kufstein-Süd, with signs in Germany informing the traveller, so if you haven't worked it out by then, you really deserve the penalty.
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 11:39 AM   #2687
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From Slovenian side (Maribor) there are first signs on vignette obligation on Austrian motorways about ten kilometers before the border, so someone can either buy Autobahnvignette on the last gas station just before the border (Petrol) or leave the motorway on the last Slovenian exit (Sentilj) and proceed to the old border crossing (ASFINAG abandoned vignette shop on Spielfeld ex-border control point).

From Austrian side (Graz) there are also first signs on vignette obligation on Slovenian motorways about ten kilometers before the border. In this case, one doesn't need to leave the motorway, because one will buy the vignette on Slovenian side of border.

And yes, once ASFINAG temporary checkpoint was at the entry ramp in direction south of A9 Seiersberg interchange.

Last edited by darko06; February 3rd, 2013 at 11:49 AM.
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 12:07 PM   #2688
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For that to be a valid analogy to the vignette case, the officers would have been waiting in the tobacconist shop to bust people who buy tram tickets.
But if the officers wait in the shop, how can they prove that the customer actually arrived there using a tram?

On the other hand: in the vignette case, was the service station actually accessible by any road other than motorway? If yes, could vladjack have claimed that he didn't use a motorway to get there?
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 12:47 PM   #2689
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Well he could have claimed anything and unless they would prove that he entered from the motorway they would have a hard time. He could argue that his car was carried there with a chopper e.g. But this is really crazy theory that would be dismissed by any court that would not look only at the text of the law, but that would also look at the sense of the law. Such a court would neverthless have to make him fine free as well.


Anyway. Are ASFINAG employees paid with bonus for every fine they make? It would make sense that they are so strict then. When flying with a bag limitation you may be certain that at those airports where they got bonus for not letting your overweight bag in unless you pay a fine, they will do it, if there is no bonus, they just don´t care.

Secondly, is this policy applied aslo on those entering from abroad on the motorway? Or is the motorway vignette free untill the first place where you can buy the ticket or at least till the first exit.

If the policy applies also to the border crossing than it is quite stupid in my eyes.

Anyway, imagine that you lose half an hour with the vignette or more because you have to leave the motorway and get back on the motorway. Not talking about the extra fuel etc... I think that ASFINAG could achieve more with different policy. Permanent 100 % camera control whether the vignette is in place after first place where it is possible to buy a vignette.
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 12:55 PM   #2690
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"Using" the motorway includes parking at the petrol station. In vladjacks case afaik additionally, there is no other way to the petrol station then using the highway.

I dont know about a bonus, but I can really imagine they have to reach some quote of fines and get a bonus when passing that number of fines. Thats just my theory. Another thing is they are always two officers....for instance to make it more difficult for one officer to not fine somebody without vignette because he is kinda "controlled" by the second one.

About camera control: They already have the technical equipment for checking vignettes by camera on many parts of the autobahn. I only dont know whether they already use it for fining or not.
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 01:36 PM   #2691
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pumpikatze View Post
About camera control: They already have the technical equipment for checking vignettes by camera on many parts of the autobahn. I only dont know whether they already use it for fining or not.
That was what I wanted to ask, if I have an expired sticker, I could just drive with that, if no camera control. Not stop on any gas stations on the motorway, only in villages. Or are they controlling the drivers from ASFINAG cars?
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 01:44 PM   #2692
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Dont forget they sometimes check every car on exits. In that case they will catch you anyway. But yes, generally an expired sticker will reduce the chance to geht caught as long as you dont stop at a restplace or petrol station. Though sometimes they even stop you when driving on the autobahn.

Anyway, that sounds pretty much like already having the intention to not pay
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 02:33 PM   #2693
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Come on, pumpikatze, I was feeling that you understand me 100%.
Everything is clear in my case, there are three questions without answer:

1. Are asfinag officers authorized by law to take a person from the Cash desk (or, say, while drinking coffee at the Raststation)?
2. Are they trained by the company to do so?
3. Do they have quotas to achieve?

If the answers are YES, NO and NO respectively then everything was legitimate, but unfair.
If the answers are not like that, then that was not legitimate and asfinag made a mistake and should normally pay for it (as I paid 120,00 EURO for mine).
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 02:41 PM   #2694
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Just to add, people say that vignette system functions much better now in Hungary.
I had a vignette and no problem, but people say that if you drive a lot without vignette in Hungary you will most likely get caught.
Here is the experience of my friend in Hungary. He was driving there, but he did not know exactly if there is vignette system and he was too lazy to ask. So, he stopped for the petrol, paid it at the Cash desk and get back to the car. When he openned the car, the officer came and said he is to pay the fine for driving without vignette. My friend started to explain he didn't know, but intended to ask and buy the vignette, etc. And the officer said that if he really intended to buy the vignette, then this was very good opportunity. So, my friend paid the fine (40,00 EURO only) and finds it was perfectly fair and legitimate, of course.
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 02:58 PM   #2695
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Originally Posted by Surel View Post
Secondly, is this policy applied aslo on those entering from abroad on the motorway? Or is the motorway vignette free untill the first place where you can buy the ticket or at least till the first exit.
As far as I have understood, you can buy the vignette right at the border station 24h. Prior to Schengen you were stopped at the border anyway, but now you must stop without asking and buy the vignette if you don't have one.

You get forewarned of this before entering Austria. For instance like this in Italy:

https://maps.google.fi/?ll=46.503207...23.35,,0,-0.47

After seeing this sign, you still have one chance to exit the motorway within Italy and so avoid buying the vignette altogether.

If you don't exit, you'll eventually see this sign, guiding you to the sales point (note, you're still in Italy!).

https://maps.google.fi/?ll=46.530185...,65.77,,0,7.77

Last edited by OulaL; February 3rd, 2013 at 03:25 PM.
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 03:58 PM   #2696
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I like that in Hungary and Romania they switched to electronic vignette. So you don't have to apply and remove stickers. You can either buy it, for the given periods, at gas stations, or you can buy it online using credit card.
The only thing you need in both cases is the license plate number and the exact dates/periods you want. There are cameras on the roads that take photos and the plates are after that checked. If there was no vignette assigned to them, you receive a fine in your mail.
So, last time I drove home and back, I bought everything online, I got email with receipt which I printed as proof on the road, and had no worries at all. Only for Austrian sticker I had to stop and buy...

Another thing I heard in Hungary is if you don't buy the vignette, you can still buy it at the end of the day and be ok. I find this fair and nice, but such a thing ca't be done when stickers are used...
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 04:15 PM   #2697
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I like that in Hungary and Romania they switched to electronic vignette. So you don't have to apply and remove stickers. You can either buy it, for the given periods, at gas stations, or you can buy it online using credit card.
The only thing you need in both cases is the license plate number and the exact dates/periods you want. There are cameras on the roads that take photos and the plates are after that checked. If there was no vignette assigned to them, you receive a fine in your mail.
So, last time I drove home and back, I bought everything online, I got email with receipt which I printed as proof on the road, and had no worries at all. Only for Austrian sticker I had to stop and buy...

Another thing I heard in Hungary is if you don't buy the vignette, you can still buy it at the end of the day and be ok. I find this fair and nice, but such a thing ca't be done when stickers are used...
I find this system also quite good.
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 05:14 PM   #2698
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Few years ago my parents drove to Basel through entire Austria and Switzerland (Vienna-Salzburg-Innsbruck-Lichtenstein-Zurich) without a vignette (I forgot to tell them and I guess they didn't pay much attention to signs) and without being caught. Sometime ignorance is a bliss!
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 05:28 PM   #2699
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vladjack View Post
Come on, pumpikatze, I was feeling that you understand me 100%.
Everything is clear in my case, there are three questions without answer:

1. Are asfinag officers authorized by law to take a person from the Cash desk (or, say, while drinking coffee at the Raststation)?
2. Are they trained by the company to do so?
3. Do they have quotas to achieve?

If the answers are YES, NO and NO respectively then everything was legitimate, but unfair.
If the answers are not like that, then that was not legitimate and asfinag made a mistake and should normally pay for it (as I paid 120,00 EURO for mine).
1. What do you mean by "to take a person"? What exactly did they do? They followed you to the cash desk of the petrol station, right? Or how did it exactly happen?
2. I can answer that after clearing 1.
3. Nobody really knows. They say "no", I say "yes".

From my experience what they do is always legitimate but unfair.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 01:21 AM   #2700
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fact is: parking areas, gas stations, "raststationen" on the highway ALL belong to the asfinag area. Not just the lanes itself.

so they are allowed to do what they want (by keeping the law)
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