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Old September 9th, 2013, 02:21 PM   #3121
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Originally Posted by mcarling View Post

Ok. You organise agreement from the locals, then we'll see about digging the tunnels. First things first.
Deal. I'll arrange a shuffle and bucket for you as well.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 02:24 PM   #3122
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post

Long live the EU, with that attitude.
When it comes to taking away vital income and living standards, the EU can go f*ck themselves. You know that. And from Germany to Italy via Austria is the fastest link through the Alps...
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Old September 9th, 2013, 02:30 PM   #3123
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
When it comes to taking away vital income and living standards, the EU can go f*ck themselves. You know that
All I know is that every time there's construction, living standards of someone is affected. Your kind of reasoning is NIMBY in its purest form.

Plus, you cannot just say "when EU does not suit my own personal needs I don't want it, if want it only if it's best for me". It's called "doing the f*ggot with someone else's ass". EU is making the best for everyone, not just "me".
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Old September 9th, 2013, 02:36 PM   #3124
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Long live the EU, with that attitude.
Three 2x2 Autobahn links through the Austrian Alps should be enough.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 02:37 PM   #3125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post

All I know is that every time there's construction, living standards of someone is affected. This kind of reasoning is NIMBY in its purest form.

Plus, you cannot just say "when EU does not suit my own personal needs I don't want it, if want it only if it's best for me". It's called "doing the f*ggot with someone else's ass".
The Austrians have provided two decent links between Germany and Italy. They've spent a lot of money on it, in a way to keep the nature as unspoilt as possible. They are vital for tourism, farming and clean air. What more do you want? The locals will most certainly not be dictated and lectured by outsiders from what they should or shouldn't do. They don't need it, it's not in the national interest to spend taxpayers money to please the Italians or the Germans.

As for the EU.. That whole system has to change. The Dutch and French have made clear they're not to be dictated by Brussels what is best for them. With the Germans they're already pissed off enough as it is having to pay for countries who can't keep a normal budget...
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Old September 9th, 2013, 02:50 PM   #3126
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Originally Posted by KingNick View Post
Three 2x2 Autobahn links through the Austrian Alps should be enough.
Evidently, since this discussion came out, they aren't.

to Road_UK: I really don't care whether Austrians build that link or not, and with whose money. I just say that this kind of arguments (I do what's best for me, and f*ck the rest) are breaking EU apart, and that would be a disaster for everybody, Austrians, Italians or Germans. Competition in a globalized world is no matter for a tiny European country.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 03:05 PM   #3127
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post

Evidently, since this discussion came out, they aren't.

to Road_UK: I really don't care whether Austrians build that link or not, and with whose money. I just say that this kind of arguments (I do what's best for me, and f*ck the rest) are breaking EU apart, and that would be a disaster for everybody, Austrians, Italians or Germans. Competition in a globalized world is no matter for a tiny European country.
That is not a very good argument. Norway and Switzerland are doing fine, and they're not even in the EU. Greece, Spain, Cyprus and Italy however are in the EU, and they're spending my money.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 03:07 PM   #3128
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
That is not a very good argument. Norway and Switzerland are doing fine, and they're not even in the EU. Greece, Spain, Cyprus and Italy however are in the EU, and they're spending my money.
This is plain stupid and ignorant, too. Italy is not spending "your" money, since it contributes to EU way more than what it gets back. So stop feeling superior and get back to Earth.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 03:16 PM   #3129
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The real bottlenecks (in peak times) are the two tunnels (Grenztunnel on the northern side and Lermooser tunnel) where a Blockabfertigung has to put on regularly. If you add two more long tunnels that certainly won't solve this issue, it might even make it worse as there are then (up to) four Blockabfertigungen.
Didn't know about these tunnel blocks, I never found them active while travelling there.
My personal experience is of congestion around the pass itself, due to the much lower average speed.
Of course, with high traffic volumes, queues build up to the tunnels.
I imagine the tunnels are not the bottlenecks themselves, but they are limited to avoid queues inside... queues generated by other spots

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That's the "main problem". Tyrol is fighting against getting major routes since decades.
I understand their reasons. But still, it would be a much better route than those existing (even without building a full 2x2, I repeat).
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Old September 9th, 2013, 03:22 PM   #3130
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post

This is plain stupid and ignorant, too. Italy is not spending "your" money, since it contributes to EU way more than what it gets back. So stop feeling superior and get back to Earth.
Monte dei Paschi money heading your way....
How about you watch your words. I'm debating with you, not arguing.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 03:24 PM   #3131
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Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post

Didn't know about these tunnel blocks, I never found them active while travelling there.
My personal experience is of congestion around the pass itself, due to the much lower average speed.
Of course, with high traffic volumes, queues build up to the tunnels.
I imagine the tunnels are not the bottlenecks themselves, but they are limited to avoid queues inside... queues generated by other spots

I understand their reasons. But still, it would be a much better route than those existing (even without building a full 2x2, I repeat).
Better route for who?
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Old September 9th, 2013, 03:25 PM   #3132
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Monte dei Paschi money heading your way....
How about you watch your words. I'm debating with you, not arguing.
You're saying false things to prove your point. That makes this discussion, and the interlocutor, not worth it.

So case closed for me. My ignore list gets more and more populated.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 03:26 PM   #3133
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post

You're saying false things to prove your point. That makes this discussion, and the interlocutor, not worth it.

So case closed for me.
Fine with me, big guy... Add me to your ignore list. If it gets more and more populated, it says more about you than everybody on it. I don't keep an ignore list. I don't get offended that easily if I were to lose an argument.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 03:39 PM   #3134
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Better route for who?
Mainly Germans and Italians, for sure. And I understand the Austrians would feel more through traffic as a free pain in the butts, but it's a matter of compromise.

Let's put it this way: since the real bottleneck is the Brenner route, I would trade a better Fernpass in exchange for the promise to NOT improve traffic volumes of A22 (and we're building a rail tunnel to travel along the corridor).

This way the max volume of through traffic would be roughly the same, but on the Austrian side it would be split among different routes, and there would be an improvement in travel quality.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 03:45 PM   #3135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Evidently, since this discussion came out, they aren't.

to Road_UK: I really don't care whether Austrians build that link or not, and with whose money. I just say that this kind of arguments (I do what's best for me, and f*ck the rest) are breaking EU apart, and that would be a disaster for everybody, Austrians, Italians or Germans. Competition in a globalized world is no matter for a tiny European country.
I agree, but so does putting a disproportional burden on single countries. Austria invested a lot of money into it's Autobahn links through the Alps and still is (A9 expansion), without getting anything back from the EU for doing so. We would love to force freight traffic off the road onto rail, but EU's is not willing to agree to any coercive action. It's policy is highly inconsistent. Supporting BBT with a huge junk of money but failing to take additional measures to fill trains with trucks.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 04:03 PM   #3136
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Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Mainly Germans and Italians, for sure. And I understand the Austrians would feel more through traffic as a free pain in the butts, but it's a matter of compromise.

Let's put it this way: since the real bottleneck is the Brenner route, I would trade a better Fernpass in exchange for the promise to NOT improve traffic volumes of A22 (and we're building a rail tunnel to travel along the corridor).

This way the max volume of through traffic would be roughly the same, but on the Austrian side it would be split among different routes, and there would be an improvement in travel quality.
But Brenner isn't much of a bottleneck though. Only a little congested in the high season due to roadworks. I've done Innsbruck to Sterzing in 30 minutes only a few days ago. Transit through Austria via A12, A13 can be done in no more then 30 minutes... Sure it'd be nice if they extend the German A7 all the way to Brenner but is it really necessary...
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Old September 9th, 2013, 04:20 PM   #3137
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Sure it'd be nice if they extend the German A7 all the way to Brenner but is it really necessary...
I don't know the B179 AADT, but a 2x2 A7.de extension would also relieve the Autobahns around Munich and would establish an alternative route for the transit traffic. It would especially improve the options for German drivers but this is no ambition for Austrians, of course.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 04:26 PM   #3138
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
That is not a very good argument. Norway and Switzerland are doing fine, and they're not even in the EU. Greece, Spain, Cyprus and Italy however are in the EU, and they're spending my money.
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
This is plain stupid and ignorant, too. Italy is not spending "your" money, since it contributes to EU way more than what it gets back. So stop feeling superior and get back to Earth.
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Old September 10th, 2013, 12:23 AM   #3139
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Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Didn't know about these tunnel blocks, I never found them active while travelling there.
My personal experience is of congestion around the pass itself, due to the much lower average speed.
True, there are regularly congestions on the pass itself, but normally you don't loose too much time there. As it's mainly due to lorries going up and down at low speeds upgrating to 2+1 would probably make a big impact. The tunnels are the bottlenecks on peak days (saturdays mainly).

Quote:
Of course, with high traffic volumes, queues build up to the tunnels.
I imagine the tunnels are not the bottlenecks themselves, but they are limited to avoid queues inside... queues generated by other spots
You're right, they implement a Blockabfertigung if there's too much traffic to avoid congestions in the tunnels - yet that means that those are indeed the bottlenecks (at Grenztunnel you have to queue on the A7 on the northern side, B179 typically is free with the Blockabfertigung - it's not a congestion on B179 that would tailback into the tunnel). You're wrong assuming that the congestion is due to capacity issues elsewhere as a tunnel (due to lower speeds and longer safety distances) typically does have a lower capacity than a surface road.

Adding two more 1+1 tunnels (Tschirgant and Fernpass or Gartnerwand) would theoretically have the following effects: Capacity should go down (as there are longer stretches of the route in tunnels), the Blockabfertigungen (especially between Lermoos and the Inntal with up to 3 tunnels) could interfere with each other (as there isn't too much surface road between the tunnels and tailbacks from one tunnel to another could become an issue). Yet, lorries would be able to travel faster (less steep ascents) and the locals would suffer less from traffic.



Quote:
But still, it would be a much better route than those existing (even without building a full 2x2, I repeat).
A 2x2 simply is out of the question, building a new transit motorway won't happen within the next decades.
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Old September 10th, 2013, 08:26 AM   #3140
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There is not too much lorry traffic on that road. There's a general ban for heavy freight traffic, but some are exempt. So if you're behind one you're buggered. Same if you're behind a caravan.
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