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Old August 6th, 2014, 09:25 PM   #3501
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Looks like the Italians are not doing any work on their end of the Brenner Base Tunnel any time soon. It is not in their medium term capital plan which I assume means nothing will be done before 2020. For some odd reason they found money for the Lyons - Turin base tunnel project which itself is not in the French medium term capital plan announced a year ago.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 10:31 PM   #3502
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What does that have to do with Austrian roads?
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Old August 6th, 2014, 10:44 PM   #3503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
I consider this censorship. Almost everywhere else everyone is allowed to film on public roads because well... It's public. There is no privacy in public. Austria is a funny country like that.
No, it's not since the idea behind is quite simple. Not every dickhead should have his personal CCTV filming public places to give him the illusion of safety for the same reason the state is not supposed to. If you want to live in some Orwellian state where this is considered normal, you might be better off somewhere else. The law just happens to be applicable on dashcams as well to which I can only say, big ******* deal, since holiday videos and pictures are unproblematic.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 11:08 PM   #3504
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And of course Google Streetview. Because Austria is right and the rest of the world is wrong.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 11:41 PM   #3505
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I tried to argue this with German people at work. I had no chance. I'm guessing it's similar in Austria regarding privacy paranoia...
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Old August 6th, 2014, 11:58 PM   #3506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
And of course Google Streetview. Because Austria is right and the rest of the world is wrong.
No, because Austria is Austria and we don't care what other countries do or think in this matter, especially not what the english speaking countries think is right. Less surveillance = more freedom.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 12:01 AM   #3507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingNick View Post
No, because Austria is Austria and we don't care what other countries do or think in this matter, especially not what the english speaking countries think is right. Less surveillance = more freedom.
Less surveillance = more freedom.
Prohibiting people making videos in public = censorship = less freedom.

Not just in the English speaking world. Also in the Dutch, French, Italian, Spanish - hell, even the Russian speaking world.

But... Ordnung muss sein, right?
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Old August 7th, 2014, 12:06 AM   #3508
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Yeah, so only Austria is the pure free country in the EU and neighborhood


http://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comme...age_in_europe/
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Old August 7th, 2014, 12:56 AM   #3509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Less surveillance = more freedom.
Prohibiting people making videos in public = censorship = less freedom.

Not just in the English speaking world. Also in the Dutch, French, Italian, Spanish - hell, even the Russian speaking world.

But... Ordnung muss sein, right?
You are allowed to make videos, but not for surveillance purposes and that is the very nature of dashcams; surveillance.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 01:05 AM   #3510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
Yeah, so only Austria is the pure free country in the EU and neighborhood

http://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comme...age_in_europe/
Google could have created Google Street View for Austria as well, but rather refused to, because they did not want to comply with the conditions set out by the data protection commission.

Also love the guy in the reddit comments: "I hate the Commission for Data Protection with great passion, as they are working on abolishing the Freedom of Panorama, that guarantees the ability to take photos in public spaces and to publish them. "

What utter rubish.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 01:05 AM   #3511
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My opinion is somewhere in the middle. I don't like surveillance, but I like road videos.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 01:20 AM   #3512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingNick View Post
You are allowed to make videos, but not for surveillance purposes and that is the very nature of dashcams; surveillance.
So all these road videos that our chef ChrisZwolle is making and posting, would you consider those videos surveillance? Because I don't...

There's one here of the A10 in Austria:


Would you consider this illegal?
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Old August 7th, 2014, 01:23 AM   #3513
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I find Street View very helpful when planning road trips. I can look onto different roads and choose accordingly. I can find panorama spots for landscapes and castles. I can check out the neighborhood of hotels before booking them.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 02:38 AM   #3514
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I can understand what are the actual Zonen where I can't legally drive, instead of discovering them while I'm in the middle of an intersection...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
I can check out the neighborhood of hotels before booking them.
Unless the hotel had not been built at the time the picture was taken (you'll get the reference ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingNick View Post
Not every dickhead should have his personal CCTV filming public places to give him the illusion of safety
Just to make an example, and not even very remote: hit and runs happen, and it's not very nice for the victim to not have a clue of how to get justice through the law. No illusions, just a very practical and unpleasant matter...

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingNick View Post
Less surveillance = more freedom.
This is a connection I never really understood. I tend to live my life in respect of people and laws: what part of my freedom would be limited by having myself (potentially) recorded in public places?

I don't understand the difference between my actions being seen by a camera and being seen by a casual bystander.
Yes, there are some limits already defined by every legal system, and they apply in the same way to how much a casual bystander is permitted to be nosy.

I can understand a general fear to be constantly followed but, to put it back into practical affairs, I use to live and travel in countries which permit the "Orwellian nightmares" and I still basically can do whatever the **** I want without anyone coming after me, because the shocking reality is that... no one has a damn reason to waste his time looking at me
I never felt "observed" or limited in my behaviour. The only time I really felt being traced down and limited in my freedom happened when I was signalled to the staff by casual people in Dortmund's U-Bahn because I was taking pictures of the stations layout (public transport is my hobby and work), and then -very politely- asked to show and erase my pictures. That day I really felt the discomforting sensation of being followed and limited in my actions and possibilities. And the bystanders, seeing that the menace was stopped by the staff, were very relieved. Talking about the illusion of safety...
"Thank God this guy won't get home and have a reference of how to design a new interchange station, that creeped me out". This people really work this way?

The whole question is a matter of checks and balances. On one side, (risk of someone doing harm to you having your image recorded)x(potential damage to your image), on the other (risk of someone performing crimes on you because no one is looking)x(potential damage to your person).
I see a serious disproportion...
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Last edited by Wilhem275; August 7th, 2014 at 02:53 AM.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 03:13 AM   #3515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
Yeah, so only Austria is the pure free country in the EU and neighborhood


http://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comme...age_in_europe/
Luxembourg too
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Old August 7th, 2014, 08:57 AM   #3516
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Less surveillance makes a difference only for criminals
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Old August 7th, 2014, 09:36 AM   #3517
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Actually StreetView in Germany has pretty old images and Google declared not to make new ones. Lots of Germans claimed to hide their house because of privacy reasons, and for Google it is too much fuss.
Check for example this place.
It has no sense and additionaly needs lots of effort from Google.
So the Germans think about privacy approximately the same way as Austrians do. That's it. People are different.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 02:12 PM   #3518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Less surveillance makes a difference only for criminals
nope. I don't want the police (or propably the NSA or BND or CIA or M16) spying on me while I'm in public. Trust is always better than control.
And 1984 was never intended as an instruction manual.
(I'd like to have Street View in Germany, though)
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Old August 7th, 2014, 02:40 PM   #3519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarian urbanist View Post
nope. I don't want the police (or propably the NSA or BND or CIA or M16) spying on me while I'm in public. Trust is always better than control.
And 1984 was never intended as an instruction manual.
(I'd like to have Street View in Germany, though)
Agree to disagree. I prefer to be safe, than "free" (whatever this last word means). And surveillance for me, abiding the law, doesn't change a bit my life.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 03:36 PM   #3520
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This reaction against CCTV in public places (like streets, plazas, the panel of a car) is just hysteria. If one doesn't want to be in a position to be tracked, one would have, for a starter, not to use a cell phone (the best "personal position tracking device" ever), deal with financial affairs only in cash, and go to extreme lengths to conceal location when using Internet.

Google, in that sense, "invades" people privacy more than any public CCTV camera. And we all know it is fairly easy for a government to get hold of contents of your emails if it wants to.

In any case, specifically regarding Street View or similar products, I don't see a privace case at all! They are showing imagery that a tall human person could see if walking or driving on streets, and taking pictures. Pictures from streets have always been legal, the only difference is the interface.

I actually hate with a passion these new discussions about considering aggregation, indexation and/or facilitation of access of information (text, sound, visual) that is already public and legal for everyone as "something different that people should have the option to reject in order to protect his/her own privacy".

For instance: a car plate is a public information, it exists for the specific purpose of allowing each vehicle to be individually identified. It is not a crime or violation to look or take not of driving plates as you walk/drive by. So why should there be legal restrictions against images or videos broadcast with visible car plates?

If I wanted to develop an smartphone App to track car plates, consolidate them (via OCR decoding) in a cloud database and them return an info to the user with the map of whether that car was spotted before (Something like the Eurobill tracker), it would be fairly easy, but it would run into legal trouble in most EU countries. Even though car plates are explicitly set up for other people to read and individualize cars.
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