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Old March 6th, 2015, 09:42 PM   #3821
mcarling
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I understand that only one tunnel will be used during construction of the second tunnel (obviously) and that only the second tunnel will be used during renovation of the first tunnel. However, once the renovation of the first tunnel has been completed, then both tunnels should be open. No?
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Old March 6th, 2015, 09:53 PM   #3822
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Yes, that is the standard approach with tunnel twinning in Austria.
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Old March 6th, 2015, 09:54 PM   #3823
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The old Tube will be used as emergency access (and maybe during extreme peak times on weekends in the summer)
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Old March 6th, 2015, 09:54 PM   #3824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
I understand that only one tunnel will be used during construction of the second tunnel (obviously) and that only the second tunnel will be used during renovation of the first tunnel. However, once the renovation of the first tunnel has been completed, then both tunnels should be open. No?
You're right but it's planned to operate one tube only. The 2nd tube will be used as emergency tube. The AADT is under 10,000 vehicles/day, maximum 30,000.
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Old March 6th, 2015, 10:02 PM   #3825
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It seems the idea is to maximize head-on collisions. It would be much smarter to operate both tubes with only one lane each.
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Old March 6th, 2015, 10:04 PM   #3826
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Wasn't it planned to build a permanent second tube instead of just an emergency one that could be used during peak times?

At first they wanted to build an emergency tube, but building a full standard tube at once was much cheaper than to upgrade the emergency tube to a traffic tube at a later time.
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Old March 6th, 2015, 10:15 PM   #3827
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Wasn't it planned to build a permanent second tube instead of just an emergency one that could be used during peak times?
Yes, and that's how it will be. I don't know why both won't be used at all times, with 2 lanes each way.
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Old March 6th, 2015, 10:32 PM   #3828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
At first they wanted to build an emergency tube, but building a full standard tube at once was much cheaper than to upgrade the emergency tube to a traffic tube at a later time.
Exactly. Costs of an emergency tube: 93 million €, costs of a full 2nd tube: 236 million €, cost of a widening the emergency tube to a full 2nd tube: 413 million €. Source (December 2011).
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Old March 6th, 2015, 10:36 PM   #3829
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
It seems the idea is to maximize head-on collisions. It would be much smarter to operate both tubes with only one lane each.
You presume Austrians are smart? C'mon! They speak German and they have more in common with their "big brother"..........
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Old March 7th, 2015, 02:00 PM   #3830
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A5 Schrick - Poysbrunn

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Originally Posted by Luki_SL View Post
A5 Schrick - Poysbrunn - construction work will be started in the spring:
Groundbreaking will be on 11th April 2015. Source.
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Old March 8th, 2015, 08:25 PM   #3831
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Semmeringer Schnellstrasse S6: junction Spittal am Semmering from Stuhleck



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Old March 9th, 2015, 08:15 PM   #3832
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [atomic] View Post
I don't like that they will still use 1 Tunnel for both directions
Quote:
Originally Posted by [atomic] View Post
The old Tube will be used as emergency access (and maybe during extreme peak times on weekends in the summer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
You're right but it's planned to operate one tube only. The 2nd tube will be used as emergency tube. The AADT is under 10,000 vehicles/day, maximum 30,000.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Wasn't it planned to build a permanent second tube instead of just an emergency one that could be used during peak times?

At first they wanted to build an emergency tube, but building a full standard tube at once was much cheaper than to upgrade the emergency tube to a traffic tube at a later time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Yes, and that's how it will be. I don't know why both won't be used at all times, with 2 lanes each way.
All of your information is IMHO outdated. Here is the Asfinag press release in German. It says
Quote:
Im Anschluss ab dem Jahr 2021 wird die bestehende Tunnelröhre saniert und damit der Tunnel voll ausgebaut.
meaning to me that they will use both tubes at all times.

Also the Kronen-Zeitung writes
Quote:
Die Verkehrsfreigabe des zweiröhrigen Karawankentunnels ist für das Jahr 2022 vorgesehen.
meaning that both tubes will be used after 2022.
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Old March 9th, 2015, 09:11 PM   #3833
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rower2000 View Post
All of your information is IMHO outdated. Here is the Asfinag press release in German. It says
meaning to me that they will use both tubes at all times.
Also the Kronen-Zeitung writes
meaning that both tubes will be used after 2022.
Hallelujah Sigi! Thanks for confirming my assumption by quoting my source

Are you sure we don't misunderstand it? Journalism mistake?
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Old March 9th, 2015, 09:40 PM   #3834
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When Asfinag talks about 'vollausbau', that has always meant a full standard traffic tube. Similar to the other Alpine tunnels that have been twinned in Austria. For example the emergency tube at the Arlbergtunnel is not called a 'vollausbau'
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Old March 9th, 2015, 11:36 PM   #3835
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Then again, we already knew it wouldn't be just an emergency tube, but we still don't know whether the second traffic tube will be open 24/7 or just in case of dense traffic. "Voll ausgebaut" doesn't mean it will be open 24/7, and "Verkehrsfreigabe" doesn't mean that either, it just means they can start using it in case of dense traffic.
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Old March 10th, 2015, 12:15 AM   #3836
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I doubt if they would install tens of millions of euros worth of safety equipment and then don't use it most of the year. Because that electronic stuff wears / dates quickly even if it isn't used. In addition, there is the safety factor. Two tubes with separated traffic are clearly safer, even if traffic volumes aren't high enough to warrant four lanes most of the year.
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Old March 10th, 2015, 12:25 AM   #3837
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I know, but that's what Austrians said when they decided to build two traffic tubes (I can't post any link to prove it though). Perhaps they've changed their minds in the meantime, but I know that's what they said at first.
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Old March 10th, 2015, 07:52 PM   #3838
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Hallelujah Sigi! Thanks for confirming my assumption by quoting my source

Are you sure we don't misunderstand it? Journalism mistake?
How did I miss your link? Pft, stupid me, it wasn't even the middle of the night... However, I still think "Vollausbau" stands for full operation of both tubes. When the concept for old tube = emergency tube was still valid for the Perjen tunnel, all Asfinag releases talked about "adapting the old tube as an emergency tunnel" as opposed to "renovating the old tube". When the plan was dropped, they changed all wording to "vollausgebaut".
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Old March 10th, 2015, 08:01 PM   #3839
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What's the reason for turning the old tube into an emergency tube anyway (or using it only in case of dense traffic)?
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Old March 10th, 2015, 08:20 PM   #3840
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perhaps so they don't have to build a dedicated emergency tunnel and opening that second tunnel for a few weekends every year is ok. also they will have to observe fewer cameras (don't know if that makes any difference)
I just hope the new one will be wider than the existing tunnel (especially the distance between the lanes) which is quite a narrow and dark hole, not sure how that can be changed.

Edit:
I found another source
http://kaernten.orf.at/news/stories/2532473/ this is from 2012 but it might explain why there is no real clarity

Quote:
Der Verkehr soll dann allerdings in beiden Richtungen durch die neue Röhre fließen. Erst wenn sich die Verkehrsfrequenz von derzeit 8.500 Fahrzeugen pro Tag auf 20.000 erhöht, ist es geplant, den Verkehr in beiden Röhren fließen zu lassen. Die Spitzen im Sommer liegen allerdings schon jetzt bei 30.000 Fahrzeugen pro Tag, sagte Asfinag-Vorstand Schedl.
rough translate
Quote:
Traffic is supposed to go through the new Bore. Only when Traffic increases from 8.500 vehicles per day to 20.000 will the second one be opened. Peaks during the summer are already exceeding 30.000 Fahrzeugen per Day, according to Asfinag-chairman Schedl.
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Last edited by [atomic]; March 10th, 2015 at 08:37 PM.
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