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Old July 25th, 2016, 08:54 PM   #4121
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I was surprised to see three lanes west of Graz though.
It's just a few kilometers.
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Old July 25th, 2016, 09:03 PM   #4122
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It's a bit longer than that, at just over 20 kilometers.
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Old July 25th, 2016, 09:09 PM   #4123
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certain part is 3+2
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Old July 25th, 2016, 09:11 PM   #4124
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Yesterday I drove on B317, through the newly opened tunnel under Sankt Georgen ob Judenburg. What really surprised me was that, although it is less than 1 km long and not connected to any motorway or expressway in Austria, you need a vignette to drive through it (it was signed like this just before the last exit, before the tunnel entrance and was also written that the lorries need the automatic payment box to pay for crossing this tunnel). I know that later it will be part of S36, but as it is so short and not connected to anything else, should't it be free? I thought that the main purpose of building this tunnel was to get traffic out of the village, but if you force even the locals to buy a vignette for 1 km, it makes no sense.
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Old July 25th, 2016, 09:54 PM   #4125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fab87 View Post
How do you feel about the Süd Autobahn between Klagenfurt and Graz? I drove through it recently after long time and i was negatively surprised, it felt rather unpleasant to drive on with many unnecessary and dangerous steep curves and all galleries were "tempo 100".
I found the Tauer Autobahn much better, and that's a freakin mountain autobahn!
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
A2 was built rather recently for such an important connection between major cities. The first segment didn't open until 1985, and the final segment wasn't completed until 1999.

B70 precedes A2 as the main route between Klagenfurt and Graz. It hasn't been upgraded a lot despite the relatively late construction of A2. It goes through nearly all towns and most upgrades in the Voitsberg area weren't completed until after A2 was built.

A2 is quite curvy through the mountains. In a sense it's a mountain motorway, there are several large viaducts and tunnels. A2 goes over the mountains, whereas A10 mainly stays in valleys and crosses the major ranges with long tunnels. The Packsattel area is too wide to tunnel (it would require a 30 km tunnel for A2 to stay level).

As Chris says, these two have a totally different topography in the mountains they cross. A10 goes along narrow valleys, and has two medium-long tunnels (>5km) to cross the mountains between them. I would not really call A10 a mountain motorway, therefore. A2 on the other hand goes to around 1050m above see level, from an elevation of ~350m at Mooskirchen west of Graz.
A further evidence for the difficulty of crossing this mountain range between Graz an Klagenfurt can be seen in the non-existence of any railroad crossing it - even though Austria has built long railroad tunnels since the late 19th century (for example, the Arlberg tunnel between Tyrol and Vorarlberg was built between 1879 and 1884, and measures more than 10,6 km...).
Only recently the Koralmtunnel is built as a base tunnel, being >30km long.

One other reason why A2 is not the most pleasant to drive - while it is rather "young" indeed (only 34 years since first opened in 1982, after 6 years of building time), it was built in a time of the oil price shocks and increasing state debts, and thus as what got to be known as a "Sparautobahn" - it was built as cheap as possible.
It featured only the uphill carriageways on which they cramped 4 lanes without any emergency stopping lanes, and partially also without any median barrier, lanes were also only 3,5 meters wide, and they reduced the radius of curves from 400 to 200m.
Overtaking a truck in such a curve was really tough - if you had gotten this experience, you would actually really like the appearance of the motorway now :-)
Only much later, and after a lot of deadly accidents, they started to appreciate safety over costs, and only in 2007 the duplication was completely finalised; the alignment was not much changed, though.

You can see a similar example, albeit less extreme, on the A2 between Graz and Vienna - built in a similar time, and also with a lot of curves, no tunnels, and a 100 speed limit for most of the time. If you take the S6 between Graz and Vienna, most of it in the Semmering area is from ~12 years ago, and features a much straighter alignment. Due to the many tunnels, you also have a long stretch of 100km/h there. And on the other side towards Vienna, on a much older alignment, again the alignment is much more adapted to the mountains, featuring many narrow curves.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I was surprised to see three lanes west of Graz though.
The total length of the 3+3 is >40km, from Gleisdorf east of Graz to ~Mooskirchen west of Graz; maybe around 20 km west of the Graz West interchange.
This is indeed one of the few motorways in Austria that had 3 lanes per direction right from the beginning, only parts of the A23 in Vienna, and the A9 around Graz had that, others that are now 3 lanes have been gradually expanded.
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Last edited by rudiwien; July 26th, 2016 at 09:59 AM.
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Old July 25th, 2016, 11:21 PM   #4126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It's a bit longer than that, at just over 20 kilometers.
Oh, I thought it was less than 10 km.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
Yesterday I drove on B317, through the newly opened tunnel under Sankt Georgen ob Judenburg. What really surprised me was that, although it is less than 1 km long and not connected to any motorway or expressway in Austria, you need a vignette to drive through it (it was signed like this just before the last exit, before the tunnel entrance and was also written that the lorries need the automatic payment box to pay for crossing this tunnel). I know that later it will be part of S36, but as it is so short and not connected to anything else, should't it be free? I thought that the main purpose of building this tunnel was to get traffic out of the village, but if you force even the locals to buy a vignette for 1 km, it makes no sense.
Do you need a vignette for the 4-lane part of B317 between St. Georgen and Unzmarkt?
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Old July 25th, 2016, 11:32 PM   #4127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudiwien View Post
And on the other side towards Vienna, on a much older alignment, again the alignment is much more adapted to the mountains, featuring many narrow curves.
The old part of S6 is really fun to drive. Winding between the mountains and a 130kmph speed limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Do you need a vignette for the 4-lane part of B317 between St. Georgen and Unzmarkt?
Nope.
Edit: You can see my post here
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Old July 26th, 2016, 09:42 PM   #4128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudiwien View Post
This is indeed one of the few motorways in Austria that had 3 lanes per direction right from the beginning, only parts of the A23 in Vienna, and the A9 around Graz had that, others that are now 3 lanes have been gradually expanded.
Also A2 between Vienna and Wiener Neustadt.
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Old July 27th, 2016, 04:52 AM   #4129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudiwien View Post
As Chris says, these two have a totally different topography in the mountains they cross. A10 goes along narrow valleys, and has two medium-long tunnels (>5km) to cross the mountains between them. I would not really call A10 a mountain motorway, therefore. A2 on the other hand goes to around 1050m above see level, from an elevation of ~350m at Mooskirchen west of Graz.
A further evidence for the difficulty of crossing this mountain range between Graz an Klagenfurt can be seen in the non-existence of any railroad crossing it - even though Austria has built long railroad tunnels since the late 19th century (for example, the Arlberg tunnel between Tyrol and Vorarlberg was built between 1879 and 1884, and measures more than 10,6 km...).
Only recently the Koralmtunnel is built as a base tunnel, being >30km long.

One other reason why A2 is not the most pleasant to drive - while it is rather "young" indeed (only 34 years since first opened in 1982, after 6 years of building time), it was built in a time of the oil price shocks and increasing state debts, and thus as what got to be known as a "Sparautobahn" - it was built as cheap as possible.
It featured only the uphill carriageways on which they cramped 4 lanes without any emergency stopping lanes, and partially also without any median barrier, lanes were also only 3,5 meters wide, and they reduced the radius of curves from 400 to 200m.
Overtaking a truck in such a curve was really tough - if you had gotten this experience, you would actually really like the appearance of the motorway now :-)
Only much later, and after a lot of deadly accidents, they started to appreciate safety over costs, and only in 2007 the duplication was completely finalised; the alignment was not much changed, though.

You can see a similar example, albeit less extreme, on the A2 between Graz and Vienna - built in a similar time, and also with a lot of curves, no tunnels, and a 100 speed limit for most of the time. If you take the S6 between Graz and Vienna, most of it in the Semmering area is from ~12 years ago, and features a much straighter alignment. Due to the many tunnels, you also have a long stretch of 100km/h there. And on the other side towards Vienna, on a much older alignment, again the alignment is much more adapted to the mountains, featuring many narrow curves.



The total length of the 3+3 is >40km, from Gleisdorf east of Graz to ~Mooskirchen west of Graz; maybe around 20 km west of the Graz West interchange.
This is indeed one of the few motorways in Austria that had 3 lanes per direction right from the beginning, only parts of the A23 in Vienna, and the A9 around Graz had that, others that are now 3 lanes have been gradually expanded.
Thank you both for the very exhaustive answers. The mountains between Graz and Klagenfurt look very "hill-ish", so I didn't notice we were so high above sea level. I reckon it is quite a issue, especially for logistics, in the winter season, if the main link between Vienna and southern Austria can be interrupted by intense snowfall.
It should be the second highest austrian highway after the A13 on Brenner Pass right?
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Old July 27th, 2016, 12:01 PM   #4130
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Quote:
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Thank you both for the very exhaustive answers. The mountains between Graz and Klagenfurt look very "hill-ish", so I didn't notice we were so high above sea level.

I agree, the mountains look rather gentle, and you climb up over a rather long distance, so it can be deceiving indeed.
It is somewhat more spectacular on the side of Klagenfurt, where you have a few really high bridges. The highest peak in that mountain range is considerably to the south of the Pack-pass, at 2.140m: https://goo.gl/maps/YaaXkq81QU42

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Originally Posted by Fab87 View Post
I reckon it is quite a issue, especially for logistics, in the winter season, if the main link between Vienna and southern Austria can be interrupted by intense snowfall.
It should be the second highest austrian highway after the A13 on Brenner Pass right?

Severe disruptions due to heavy snow are actually rather rare, but of course occasionally you might have to go really slow if the cleaning trucks have not been out before you.

Regarding the elevation, I found this page (in German):
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_...C3%96sterreich

If you sort by "Passhöhe" (elevation of the pass), and then search for the first "Autobahn", you will indeed see the "Packsattel" as next in line after Brenner, the elevation quoted is however from the national road, and not from the motorway, which has a tunnel underneath, and is thus ~100m lower.
(You have to ignore entries with Autobahn-T, which means a motorway tunnel)
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Old July 27th, 2016, 01:50 PM   #4131
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If I remember correctly, also A10 rises up to 1000+ m above sea level...
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Old July 27th, 2016, 02:15 PM   #4132
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Yes, to approximately 1340 meters above sea level near the southern portal of the Tauern Tunnel, according to Google Earth elevation data.
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Old July 27th, 2016, 09:20 PM   #4133
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There's a signpost at the highest point on the A10, which iirc states exactly 1340m
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Чл. 140. Водачът на велосипед е длъжен да се движи възможно най-близо до дясната граница на платното за движение.
Чл. 141. На водача на велосипед е забранено:1. да се движи успоредно до друг велосипедист;
3. да се движи в непосредствена близост до пътно превозно средство или да се държи за него;
6. да управлява велосипед по площите, предназначени за движение само на пешеходци. Тази забрана не се отнася за децата велосипедисти.
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Old July 28th, 2016, 06:19 AM   #4134
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Originally Posted by satanism View Post
There's a signpost at the highest point on the A10, which iirc states exactly 1340m
basically our motorways are built in existing mountain valleys, there are only 2 motorways where was no existing valley which can be used

A21, southwest bypass of vienna, cause in the winter heavy problems with stucked trucks if there is medium-lot snow fall

A2, the choosen south route has no good valleys, so a lot of height difference and narrow curves, normally only problems if heavy snow fall

a good indicator is to see if there exits a railway line or not in this area
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Old July 29th, 2016, 02:15 PM   #4135
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In August will start a new construction site on A1 motorway in Austria: between Pöchlarn and Matzleinsdorf the motorway will be enlarged from 2 lanes per direction to 3 lanes per direction. Around 65.000 vehicles drive on this section daily. During the construction, the traffic will go on 2 narrow lanes on each direction, with 80 km/h speed limit.

The works shall be completed in May 2018, so it will take slightly under 2 years for this job. The total costs are around 33M Euro.

After completion, A1 motorway will be continuously with 3 lanes each direction between Vienna (junction with A21) and Wels (junction with A8/A9).

Press release ASFiNAG.
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Old July 30th, 2016, 07:40 PM   #4136
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After completion, A1 motorway will be continuously with 3 lanes each direction between Vienna (junction with A21) and Wels (junction with A8/A9).
Just to be exact:

Six lanes will reach from Knoten Steinhäusel (A1/A21) to Knoten Voralpenkreuz (A1/A8/A9). (technically only to the Exit Sattledt 1km before Knoten Voralpenkreuz)

164km of continuous sixlane motorway in Austria.
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Old July 30th, 2016, 08:28 PM   #4137
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A serious education on how to drive on 3-lane motorways is needed in Austria, though....
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Чл. 140. Водачът на велосипед е длъжен да се движи възможно най-близо до дясната граница на платното за движение.
Чл. 141. На водача на велосипед е забранено:1. да се движи успоредно до друг велосипедист;
3. да се движи в непосредствена близост до пътно превозно средство или да се държи за него;
6. да управлява велосипед по площите, предназначени за движение само на пешеходци. Тази забрана не се отнася за децата велосипедисти.
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Old July 30th, 2016, 08:37 PM   #4138
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A serious education on how to drive on 3-lane motorways is needed in Austria, though....
why? if i ever saw drivers tending to keep on rightmost lane, it was in Austria.
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Old July 30th, 2016, 08:44 PM   #4139
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A serious education on how to drive on 3-lane motorways is needed in Austria, though....
Education for whom? Quite a large part of drivers who drive in Austria, did not learn driving in Austria...
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Old July 30th, 2016, 08:54 PM   #4140
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Doesn't matter where they learned to drive initially.Austria needs to run education campaigns on how to drive on a 3-laned motorway, now that you have more of them....there are many ways to do that, especially nowadays.
I've driven the Vienna Linz stretch many times and a lot of drivers are still driving in the middle lane, despite the one to the right being free. When I flash them, some understand, some look at me like i'm an UFO or something, and it is very annoying AND dangerous to move 3 lanes just to overpass a bewilded one....

It also needs to be enforced properly by the police....as otherwise the benefit of having 3 lanes is greatly diminished
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Чл. 140. Водачът на велосипед е длъжен да се движи възможно най-близо до дясната граница на платното за движение.
Чл. 141. На водача на велосипед е забранено:1. да се движи успоредно до друг велосипедист;
3. да се движи в непосредствена близост до пътно превозно средство или да се държи за него;
6. да управлява велосипед по площите, предназначени за движение само на пешеходци. Тази забрана не се отнася за децата велосипедисти.

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