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Old December 31st, 2016, 01:27 AM   #4281
Moravian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Negjana View Post
I'm not a environmentalist, for your info.

Projects like the Nord Autobahn are extremely senseful and important. But the S8 is just a waste of money, you do not need motorways for commuters. And I don't believe it will do a good job of relieving the cities along the B8.

But go on, discredit me and call me a green if you prefer that, I don't care.

My suggestion - as the next step - would be as follows -a new road border March/Morava bridge between AT/SK - between S8+B49.at and D4.sk. The river creates a significant barrier.
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Old December 31st, 2016, 10:57 AM   #4282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Negjana View Post
you do not need motorways for commuters.
I don't know if one needs a (second) commuter motorway b/n Vienna and Bratislava but you cannot claim that motorways are generally not needed for commuters. For instance, many Dutch motorways are mainly commuter motorways because of the dense development.

However, I generally like the idea of having more than one motorway(-like) alternative routes. If there's an accident or just jam, transit traffic can easily take the other route w/o losing time.
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Old December 31st, 2016, 11:39 AM   #4283
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Today all traffic on this route is commuter / regional traffic, as there is no route into Slovakia yet. That also makes it difficult to do a cost/benefit analysis because everything is based on assumptions and not proven traffic volumes / reasonably good estimates of potential traffic.

Austria and Slovakia are very poorly integrated in this region. There is just one single-lane bridge across the Morava / March and it's all the way near the Czech border.
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Old December 31st, 2016, 11:56 AM   #4284
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are there some ferries?
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Old December 31st, 2016, 12:42 PM   #4285
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There is a ferry between Angern and Záhorská Ves, here: https://www.google.at/maps/@48.38237...!3m1!1e3?hl=de

I took the one in Angern once, it is actually a pretty fast service. The boat is actually just a float, and it has no engine, but is moved by the power of the current, and held on course by a cable:



In German this type is called a "Rollfähre", there are several more on the Danube, especially in the "Wachau" area.


There were also plans for building a bridge in that location, but a local poll was negative towards that (~73% against, see an article in German: http://noe.orf.at/news/stories/2669604/). Mostly cited reasons were fear of transit traffic; another reason speculated was the feel of decreased security...
85% of the costs would have been covered by EU funds, 7,5% by each of Austria and Slovakia.


A bit offtopic, but current plans for bridges only include two foot/bicycle bridges, one close to Dürnkrut (https://www.google.at/maps/@48.48738...5,12.21z?hl=de), and one close to Marchegg (https://www.google.at/maps/@48.25723...38,12.5z?hl=de). For both, there will be polls next year, and support is not certain. Funding would again be 85% with EU funds, rest of the costs split between the two countries, no costs for the villages/towns themselves.
There is an article with details, in German language, here: https://www1.meinbezirk.at/gaensernd...hwebe_a1928282.

One such bridge already exists close to the castle "Schlosshof" and Devinska Nova Ves: https://www.google.at/maps/@48.21188...!3m1!1e3?hl=de

(see https://goo.gl/maps/N84tHUj1Mdm for a 360 view)

On weekends, the bridge is really crowded, mostly Slovaks coming to Austria, but I used it to bike once to Devin Castle, really convenient!
Fun fact - there was an Internet vote for naming the bridge, with no predefined options to choose. The final winner would have been "Chuck Norris bridge", but then this was ignored, and it is now called "Fahrradbrücke der Freiheit" / "Cyklomost slobody" ("bicycle bridge of freedom"). For a short moment, some people named it on Google Maps after Chuck, though:




So, to end this off-topic: finally, the potential future motorway bridge between S8 and D4 is currently the only prospect for a new car bridge - and that one is dim, and very far away...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ices77 View Post
These detailed facts are good information. Generally roads and motorway in densely urbanised areas are much more complicated when it comes to approvals. With strong green lobby in city government thumbs up so that at least the part of motorway/expressway projects will get their construction started. Also in Bratislava, regarding D4, the nearer the city center, the more approval problems usually.
Well most of S8 is actually not in any urbanised area. Issues there are:
- on the one hand, fear of a new transit route - which is likely, because the distance to Bratislava is likely a bit shorter on the north, especially if your destination in Vienna is in the northern areas, and also because the southern route is the main route towards Budapest, and often very crowded.
- the area it passes through is the most important agricultural area of Austria, basically one of the very few flat areas we have :-) Therefore, especially the topics of waste water management from the motorway (especially salty water from winter service) is the main reason for the prolonged hearings for the environmental permits.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ices77 View Post
I think, however that section Gansendorf - SK border has at least a kind of technical study and the route is more or less fixed. But ASFINAG also does not have leaflet information for this section, so it seems it is really a long term issue.

There is of course an indicative route, but no planning process for submitting to the environmental approval study has been started. I think from when they start, you can count at least 4 years until the first verdict would be out, and then you can again bet on appeals. So likely ~6 years from the moment that a decision to build is taken, to actually being able to start building, is likely (tendering is normally relative fast, and appeals to that are handled swiftly). Overall, this can mean around a decade till opening.


Now, whether Austria/this region needs S8 or not is a difficult question to answer. If the S8 doesn't get built, one surely needs bypass roads for Deutsch-Wagram, Strasshof and Gänserndorf, each of which is approximately 10.000 inhabitants.
This is also one of the main critics to the S8, that especially Strasshof and Gänserndorf would not well connected to the motorway, and thus the relief from its construction would be less effective than a bypass road which is better aligned with the current B8 national road. I agree with that aspect - S8 alignment is really towards meeting the D4 south-east of Marchegg, and not that much a relief road for many towns along the B8. People might pass-by Deutsch-Wagram, but then go on the B8 through Strasshof and Gänserndorf. The villages southern of the S8 route, which profit of being closer to it, are not nearly as big and significant that it would justify that route...
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Last edited by rudiwien; December 31st, 2016 at 01:06 PM.
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Old December 31st, 2016, 01:18 PM   #4286
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I visited Devin castle some years ago, but I had to drive all the way back to Bratislava in order to reach Hainburg an der Donau...
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Old December 31st, 2016, 01:22 PM   #4287
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One just has to see a map of the project to know that it will not do a good job of relieving the cities, local bypasses would be much better there.
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Old December 31st, 2016, 04:13 PM   #4288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
I visited Devin castle some years ago, but I had to drive all the way back to Bratislava in order to reach Hainburg an der Donau...

Well, that's not going to change much even if the S8 is connected with the D4.. Currently, you do approximately this:



Later, you would do approximately that:


So, you'd still travel a long way around.. Only advantage is that you'd avoid potential rush hour delays in Bratislava.

In any way, not a case to support building this bridge & motorway :-)
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Old December 31st, 2016, 09:19 PM   #4289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Negjana View Post
Nobody needs this stupid road!!!

There are 2 perfectly straight railways in the region that have a lot of potential for additional services and increased frequencies! But the southern one, which is the shortest connection between Vienna and Bratislava by rail, still hasn't been modernized and improved since the fall of communism!
You probably mean northern railway. That one is the shortest and not yet modernised. If I had to choose between S8 and modernisation of railway via Marchegg, then I would choose the railway because it would in fact create huge opportunities for rail transport in the region. But IMO it is not correct to put it this way. Both railway and motorway have meaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Negjana View Post
I'm not a environmentalist, for your info.

Projects like the Nord Autobahn are extremely senseful and important. But the S8 is just a waste of money, you do not need motorways for commuters. And I don't believe it will do a good job of relieving the cities along the B8.

But go on, discredit me and call me a green if you prefer that, I don't care.
S8 would be also a commuter motorway. But partially maybe not in the way you may expect. If it will ever be build and there still will be EU there can take place instant colonisation of nearby Austrian villages by Slovaks using the advantage of lower real estate prices in the region. However I don't expect it will happen in such scale as in the villages south of Danube, because these are ridiculously close to the centre of Bratislava.

It would be of course used also by commuters between Bratislava and Vienna, but don't expect tens of thousands commuting cars a day, there is not that much commuters. On current border crossings there is following daily traffic: I/61 - B9: 13 839, D4 - A6: 17 798. Eventually it will be also used by commuters from nearby Austrian villages, but I think mostly by those, who already commute by car. On the other hand the area doesn't seem to be particularly populated so I guess it can hardly generate substantial commuter traffic.

The main advantage of S8 is it will likely be for very long time the only proper road connection between Slovakia and Austria north of Danube (that one close to CZ border is negligible). It will significantly decrease some distances and travel times. It would also somehow relieve overcrowded A4 and B9 especially when northern part of D4 will be build.

Although I understand there are probably bigger priories in Austria, I would not ultimately condemn the S8.
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Old January 24th, 2017, 08:37 PM   #4290
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Austria wanna introduce an e-vignette from 2018, see press release. It's planned to be purchased online on the ASFINAG website or via smartphone app from 1st December 2017. The price will be the same like for the sticker which will still exist. The law has not yet been passed though.
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Which new motorways are currently under construction?
Which new motorways will be opened next?

See 'New motorway projects' thread

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Old January 24th, 2017, 10:46 PM   #4291
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Like in Hungary?
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Old January 24th, 2017, 11:11 PM   #4292
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Like in Hungary?
In Hungary there's no sticker available.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 25th, 2017, 04:14 PM   #4293
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Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
Austria wanna introduce an e-vignette from 2018, see press release. It's planned to be purchased online on the ASFINAG website or via smartphone app from 1st December 2017. The price will be the same like for the sticker which will still exist. The law has not yet been passed though.
Don't be stupid Austria, how else will I have my yearly argument with the idiots that work in the OMV in Hobersdorf if you introduce them?
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Old January 25th, 2017, 07:35 PM   #4294
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Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
Don't be stupid Austria, how else will I have my yearly argument with the idiots that work in the OMV in Hobersdorf if you introduce them?
the e-vignette come it is fixed for year 2018

the orignial sticker STAYs, both are allowed following, user can decide
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Old January 25th, 2017, 07:39 PM   #4295
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Raststätte Holzkirchen will lose a lot of business
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Old January 25th, 2017, 08:23 PM   #4296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
In Hungary there's no sticker available.
They have virtual stickers, you only get a bill.
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Old January 25th, 2017, 09:24 PM   #4297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
They have virtual stickers, you only get a bill.
The new option is like the Hungarian way but the old Austrian option remains.
__________________

Which new motorways are currently under construction?
Which new motorways will be opened next?

See 'New motorway projects' thread

** Please help completing and updating of the list **

Been/driven: A, AND, B, CDN, CH, CZ, D, DK, E, EST, F, FIN, FL, GB, H, I, L, LV, LT, N, NL, P, PL, RO, S, SLO, USA (My cumulative travel mapping)
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Old January 25th, 2017, 10:14 PM   #4298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
They have virtual stickers, you only get a bill.
I know it, as I did it this summer. I was saying that Austria will retain traditional stickers, unlikely Hungary.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 28th, 2017, 09:07 AM   #4299
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Good, I'm looking forward to many years of arguments ahead with those fools!

Still, with yet another country moving to an e-vignette system, I really wish the EU would put their foot down and insist on a system that is more suited to the needs of car users. Take the typical Polish driver going to Croatia - I need to pay for vignettes for CZ, A and SLO, which for a two week holiday effectively means 2xA+SLO (about 35 Euro) and 1xCZ (monthly - about 20 Euro), then another 65 Euro in Croatia on tolls. 100 Euro in tolls between Wroclaw and Dubrovnik is way too much :/
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Old January 28th, 2017, 09:27 AM   #4300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
Good, I'm looking forward to many years of arguments ahead with those fools!

Still, with yet another country moving to an e-vignette system, I really wish the EU would put their foot down and insist on a system that is more suited to the needs of car users. Take the typical Polish driver going to Croatia - I need to pay for vignettes for CZ, A and SLO, which for a two week holiday effectively means 2xA+SLO (about 35 Euro) and 1xCZ (monthly - about 20 Euro), then another 65 Euro in Croatia on tolls. 100 Euro in tolls between Wroclaw and Dubrovnik is way too much :/
Why dont you go via SK and HU to Croatia? It might be a slight detour from Wroclaw, but it still saves you one vignette.
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