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Old June 29th, 2017, 03:18 PM   #4381
KingNick
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Probably a very old sign where Salzburg was still part of Bavaria.
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Old July 4th, 2017, 01:06 AM   #4382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingNick View Post
Probably a very old sign where Salzburg was still part of Bavaria.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GL8oSY2X7r...00/9PHuAZ8.png
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Old July 6th, 2017, 01:16 AM   #4383
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Maybe it's an Italian sign from 1945.
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Old July 10th, 2017, 12:50 PM   #4384
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???

Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
Speaking of motorway numbering, is there a reason why in Austria:
- A10 is re-numbered A11 at Villach
- A8 is re-numbered A9 nearby Wels
- A2 is re-numbered A23 just south of Vienna
?
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Old July 10th, 2017, 01:31 PM   #4385
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We could add A7/S10, S6/S36 and A22/S5/S33.
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Old July 10th, 2017, 01:32 PM   #4386
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As far as I know, the concept was to redesignate the tangent motorways when intersecting the main radial routes A1 and A2. This happend at Villach with A10 and A11, at Voralpenkreuz with A8 and A9, but not at Graz, A9 is designated as so both north and south of the A2.

In my opinion, there is no benefit in these changes of designations. Furthermore, the number A25 could be removed by designating the current A25 as A8, and designating the current A8 between Wels and Voralpenkreuz as continuation of the A9. This change would much more closely resemble the flow of traffic, and also be in line with the layout of Knoten Wels, as this is a TOTSO at the moment.

In Vienna it is a little more difficult.

A23 runs from the northeast of vienna to the Altmannsdorfer Straße, passing through the Inzersdorf junction triangle on its northern leg. The A2 starts at Inzersdorf West junction, and from there uses the western leg of the triangle to Inzersdorf South, and then on to the south. The eastern leg is officially not A2 or A23, but a number of ramps to these motorways.

So, strictly speaking, A2 is not renumbered A23, but A2 originates on A23.

And yes, of course all 3 junctions are TOTSO's.
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Old July 10th, 2017, 01:38 PM   #4387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
We could add A7/S10, S6/S36 and A22/S5/S33.
A7/S10 has a political reason. Apart from A5, no Autobahnen are being constructed any more due to the negative connotation to that term, but rather Schnellstraßen with the same design criteria as motorways. It's stupid, but happens in many countries.

S6/S36 would seem like adhering to my mentioned renumbering scheme at major motorways.

A22/S5/S33 has good reasons though. A22 once extended through Knoten Stockerau to Stockerau Nord, where it provides access to B4. When B303 became the S3 a few years ago, the part between Knoten Stockerau and Exit Stockerau West was "given" to S3, so S3 starts at Knoten Stockerau now.

S5/S33 don't share the same terminus, as S5 runs from Knoten Stockerau to Krems, running through Knoten Jettsdorf, where S33 ends, coming from St. Pölten. Of course, TOTSO again.
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Old July 10th, 2017, 03:18 PM   #4388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Negjana View Post
A7/S10 has a political reason. Apart from A5, no Autobahnen are being constructed any more due to the negative connotation to that term, but rather Schnellstraßen with the same design criteria as motorways. It's stupid, but happens in many countries.
But S-roads with motorway standards are signposted as motorways. It's not like in other countries, where motorway-like roads are signposted differently and have usually a lower speed limit.

What is a TOTSO?
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 10th, 2017, 03:23 PM   #4389
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It still doesn't sound as bad to the general public, they also don't know that in fact it is just the same as a motorway.

TOTSO stands for Turn Off To Stay On, meaning that you have to leave the through motorway to stay on the same designation, there are quite a few junctions like that in Austria.
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Old July 10th, 2017, 03:23 PM   #4390
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
What is a TOTSO?
"Turn off to stay on." Namely, if you want to exit the intersection on the same-numbered road as you enter it, you need to change the direction in a way or another.
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Old July 10th, 2017, 04:56 PM   #4391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Negjana View Post
It still doesn't sound as bad to the general public, they also don't know that in fact it is just the same as a motorway.

TOTSO stands for Turn Off To Stay On, meaning that you have to leave the through motorway to stay on the same designation, there are quite a few junctions like that in Austria.
Like A2 near Klagenfurt: if you come from Italy/Villach, you have to turn to continue towards Graz/Vienna. If you go straigh, you'll end in central Klagenfurt.
Is it true that they built it in that way because they originally planned to run A2 through the centre of Klagenfurt (demolishing half city???), until they, fortunetely, decided to go around it?
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old July 10th, 2017, 06:18 PM   #4392
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Yes, that is true.

Other TOTSO's in Austria are:

Wels, Innsbruck-Amras, Exit Graz-Webling, Linz-Hummelhof, Jettsdorf, Süßenbrunn (kind of), Exit Wr. Neustadt-Ost.

Correct me if I forgot anything.
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Old July 21st, 2017, 02:39 PM   #4393
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Good news from Styria

http://steiermark.orf.at/news/stories/2856066/

The second tube of Gleinalmtunnel on A9 motorway has been opened for traffic this morning at 5 a.m. and traffic will flow through both tubes until September. From September until 2019, the old tube from 1978 (!) will be renovated and brought to modern standards. From 2019 onwards, traffic will again flow through both tubes, which will most likely eliminate the frequent traffic jams caused by too much traffic, especially on weekends in July and August.
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Old August 9th, 2017, 01:23 PM   #4394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Negjana View Post
A7/S10 has a political reason. Apart from A5, no Autobahnen are being constructed any more due to the negative connotation to that term, but rather Schnellstraßen with the same design criteria as motorways. It's stupid, but happens in many countries.

S6/S36 would seem like adhering to my mentioned renumbering scheme at major motorways.

To make it more complicated, you also have S35, so at Bruck/Mur, you have a triangle interchange from S6/35/36 ... Even though S35 in that last section just before Bruck/Mur is AFAIK not signposted as a motorway, just as an "Autostraße" (limited access road)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Negjana View Post

A22/S5/S33 has good reasons though. A22 once extended through Knoten Stockerau to Stockerau Nord, where it provides access to B4. When B303 became the S3 a few years ago, the part between Knoten Stockerau and Exit Stockerau West was "given" to S3, so S3 starts at Knoten Stockerau now.

S5/S33 don't share the same terminus, as S5 runs from Knoten Stockerau to Krems, running through Knoten Jettsdorf, where S33 ends, coming from St. Pölten. Of course, TOTSO again.

Plus that S33 initially ran to Krems via the southern bank, it is built as a 2+2 old-style Schnellstraße (so rather narrower embankment, ...), but is now downgraded to the designation B37a; still has a 130 speed limit on most of its section, though..

And S5 from Knoten Stockerau to Krems is actually 1+1 (though grade-separated just until the city limits), with a speed limit of 100, and no plans to be upgraded to 2+2...

Really messy :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Like A2 near Klagenfurt: if you come from Italy/Villach, you have to turn to continue towards Graz/Vienna. If you go straigh, you'll end in central Klagenfurt.
Is it true that they built it in that way because they originally planned to run A2 through the centre of Klagenfurt (demolishing half city???), until they, fortunetely, decided to go around it?

It was actually already quite far into the city, see https://www.google.at/maps/place/Kla....3122246?hl=de
Part of that second carriageway is now used as a parking lot; and the rest of the road through the city was on a 2+2 road as well, but of course with traffic lights etc.. Luckily they didn't upgrade that, as they luckily never built A9 through the hills in Graz (instead we have the Plabutschtunnel), nor did they build the planned Gürtelautobahn and Wientalautobahn nor the Autobahn along the Danube Channel - though all these aren't quiet roads either ...


Anyhow, to the list, you can add also the confusion of
- A 21 => S1
- A 23 => S2 (for a really really short section!) => S1 (though that will make more sense when S1 is extended through the Lobautunnel)
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Old August 9th, 2017, 02:10 PM   #4395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudiwien View Post
Plus that S33 initially ran to Krems via the southern bank, it is built as a 2+2 old-style Schnellstraße (so rather narrower embankment, ...), but is now downgraded to the designation B37a; still has a 130 speed limit on most of its section, though..

And S5 from Knoten Stockerau to Krems is actually 1+1 (though grade-separated just until the city limits), with a speed limit of 100, and no plans to be upgraded to 2+2...
What you mean with "old-style Schnellstraße" I believe is the former Sparautobahn. A Sparautobahn was a narrower Motorway without shoulders and without a median, so very dangerous. You are right that parts of S33 were constructed as such, but not the segment between Krems and Traismauer, only the piece between Traismauer-Nord and St. Pölten-Nord. After many horrible accidents, one of which involved one of my relatives, the central segment was widened to a full motorway profile though.

For S5 there are plans to widen it to a full motorway profile, but there is no financing and no schedule at the moment.
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Old August 9th, 2017, 02:41 PM   #4396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Negjana View Post
What you mean with "old-style Schnellstraße" I believe is the former Sparautobahn. A Sparautobahn was a narrower Motorway without shoulders and without a median, so very dangerous. You are right that parts of S33 were constructed as such, but not the segment between Krems and Traismauer, only the piece between Traismauer-Nord and St. Pölten-Nord. After many horrible accidents, one of which involved one of my relatives, the central segment was widened to a full motorway profile though.

No, I mean a full 2+2 road, but rather a bit narrower emergency strip, shorter acceleration/deceleration lanes (e.g. in the Mautern interchange), and potentially tighter curve radii. Which is what the Schnellstraßen previously were allowed to look like (and still are e.g. on S36, S35, S6, ... of course, there are also Schnellstraßen that look like a Sparautobahn, e.g. parts of the Burgenlandschnellstraße, Mattersburger Schnellstraße)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Negjana View Post
For S5 there are plans to widen it to a full motorway profile, but there is no financing and no schedule at the moment.

I wouldn't call that a plan - that is maybe a vague idea in some local politicians head, but there is no plan - because there is no planning started for it, there is no idea on how the widening would look like, there is no timeline, there is no idea on costs, ... And ASFINAG some time ago said that still by 2030 this road will be sufficient for traffic levels..
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Old August 9th, 2017, 02:59 PM   #4397
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You might be right about the shoulders, although it doesn't feel narrower when driving on the road.

Mautern interchange I think technically isn't part of the piece signed as a motorway, so lower standards would apply there.
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Old August 9th, 2017, 03:15 PM   #4398
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A8 was built as a 'Sparautobahn' and has recently been expanded to a more modern cross-profile.

The Swiss term for such a road is a 'Mini-Autobahn'. A4 between Schaffhausen and Winterthur was built with that standard, and I believe A16 in the Jura Mountains as well. These motorways do not have shoulders.
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Old August 16th, 2017, 04:24 PM   #4399
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Some pictures from the beginning of the construction of the S3 extension north of Hollabrunn to Guntersdorf, see http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/48.6145/16.1066

This will be an alternating 2+1 road. Construction work that started now is two bridges over the railway near Wullersdorf, (one for the S3, one for a "Landesstrasse" near the Wullersdorf exit, that will also be grade-separated). Next will be the new intersection "Hollabrunn Nord", which means rebuilding the existing roundabout and the bridge for the S3 over it; the rest of the section will be started next year. Expected opening is by 2021.





















Source: http://www.noen.at/hollabrunn/s-3-au...er/54.880.904#
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Last edited by rudiwien; August 16th, 2017 at 04:47 PM.
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Old August 17th, 2017, 03:06 PM   #4400
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Pictures from laying concrete/asphalt on the extension of A5 towards Poysbrunn, from the constructor of Lot 4 (Walterskirchen-Poysbrunn, see http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/48.6805/16.6901)

Pictures are supposedly from August 2nd







Source: http://hochtief.at/projekte/a5-nordw...bschnitt-4-noe
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