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Old October 3rd, 2017, 03:55 PM   #4441
OulaL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudiwien View Post
Will the border crossing be smooth enough to not disturb Swiss internal traffic on the motorway? It seems like there won't be too much space for queues.
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Old October 3rd, 2017, 04:27 PM   #4442
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Will the border crossing be smooth enough to not disturb Swiss internal traffic on the motorway? It seems like there won't be too much space for queues.

Technically, both Austria and Switzerland are in Schengen, so no border controls would be needed in "normal" times.

However, yes, if they do controls, there isn't basically any space at all.

Also interesting is that the currently the stump node built on the Swiss side doesn't allow for all the connections, some would have to go through the roundabout (e.g. northwards on A13 towards Austria):



Looks like a mixture of a trumpet and a partial cloverleaf, probably dictated by space restrictions..
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Old October 3rd, 2017, 05:06 PM   #4443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudiwien View Post
Technically, both Austria and Switzerland are in Schengen, so no border controls would be needed in "normal" times.

However, yes, if they do controls, there isn't basically any space at all.

Also interesting is that the currently the stump node built on the Swiss side doesn't allow for all the connections, some would have to go through the roundabout (e.g. northwards on A13 towards Austria):



Looks like a mixture of a trumpet and a partial cloverleaf, probably dictated by space restrictions..

connector 5+6 should not be a Problem if needed, then the missing two 270° turns should not be the Problem, for example Austria -> A13 south is missing but this left turn would not be the Problem because it only Interrupts the local Exit traffic and no Major A1-A13-S18 flow, for the last one local->A1 you only have to build 2 lanes that the local left turn never Interrupts local/A1->S18, space limited, real Problems NO
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Old October 7th, 2017, 09:20 PM   #4444
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Fotos from various lots of the construction of the A5 Schrick - Poybrunn, courtesy of ASFINAG, seem to be all from August 3rd 2017

- Wilfersdorf Süd / Mistelbach interchange (http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/48.5604/16.6372, https://www.google.com/maps/@48.5626.../data=!3m1!1e3)



- A bridge I think here: https://www.google.com/maps/@48.5978.../data=!3m1!1e3






Some other pics that I can't locate properly:





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Old October 8th, 2017, 02:23 AM   #4445
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CP makes for nobody sense, but the Greens and their silly nature Topic nothing more to say


the best solution was the original one from Lustenau-North direct to wolfurt-lauterach, you can build a tunnel, use prefabricated tunnel elements would cause only a short disruption for the birds during building and the best would be you can use it for road & rail
Don't talk about stuff you have no idea about
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Old October 28th, 2017, 03:06 PM   #4446
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Update on widening the A1 to 2x3 around Pöchlarn (maps: https://www.google.at/maps/@48.1970047,15.259141,13z and http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/48.1976/15.2543), the last remaining piece between Knoten Steinhäusl (with A21) and Knoten Voralpenkreuz (with A9/A8) to be two-laned only:

One carriageway is already opened to 3 lanes since this Wednesday, the second one will be opening end of November. This is temporarily for the winter, in April and May next year they will reduce it again to 2 lanes for finishing works.

Construction started late 2016, with traffic affected since mid 2017, and included widening 8 bridges, some pictures (from earlier stages), courtesy to ASFINAG:









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Old October 29th, 2017, 12:37 AM   #4447
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Now compare how much it took to widen this ~5 km motorway in Austria, and how much it takes a similar job in Germany...
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Old October 29th, 2017, 12:48 AM   #4448
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I guess for once, with ASFINAG, Austria created an actually efficient organisation... Not that the rest of the administration would be that great :-)

Btw, in case you are interested, the widening works cost actually 32 million Euro, for 5.1 km, so not a very cheap piece of work, the number of bridge widening is likely the cause.
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Old November 12th, 2017, 11:00 PM   #4449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudiwien View Post
Technically, both Austria and Switzerland are in Schengen, so no border controls would be needed in "normal" times.
What you forget and what has always been the main obstacle here is that Switzerland is part of Schengen but not part of the EU customs union. So some border infrastructure for custom checks is needed.



Originally a huge border stations was planned on the Austrian side near ASt Lustenau Nord. S18 originally was supposed to be built further north, but the connection to Switzerland was pretty much identical (Lustenau north, Höchst, St. Margrethen). As you can see on the satellite image there simply isn't any space on the Swiss side. This huge border station was one of the main reasons why many people protested the original S18 project and why it was eventually abandonned. It would have been located inside a Natura 2000 zone (back then it wasn't a Natura 2000 zone yet btw).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian_AT View Post
CP makes for nobody sense, but the Greens and their silly nature Topic nothing more to say
Sorry, but you have no idea. Neither the green party or any other party for that matter support the CP alternative. The green party favoured either the 0+ alterantive (no new street but improvements in rail infrastructure) or the M alterantive at Mäder (which in my opinion was the most sensible one). Ultimately a study concluded that only the ACP or CP alterantive are feasible.

No one, especially in Lustenau, wanted the CP alternative, hence - despite the fact that this variant was already eliminated! - variant E was reintroduced into the process and slightly modified to become alternative Z. you can read it all in full detail here:
http://www.vorarlberg.at/pdf/schlussdokument_klein.pdf

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Originally Posted by Christian_AT View Post
the best solution was the original one from Lustenau-North direct to wolfurt-lauterach, you can build a tunnel, use prefabricated tunnel elements would cause only a short disruption for the birds during building and the best would be you can use it for road & rail
Again, this is not what the original proposal looked like! It was supposed to be an elevated road, not a cut and cover road. The fact is, cut and cover is highly problemativ in this area, because it is a semi-swamp and it's also a flood zone:



A railway tunnel makes no sense in this area. It would need ramps to reach Lustenau station and then, after just 5 km or less, another set of ramps to reach Hard station. And only a small segment of maybe 1 km could be even shared with the road.

Long story short: I predict S18 to be a complete fail. There are too many problems here. First of all, people travelling between Switzerland and Germany will probably not use it, because they want to save money and won't buy the vignette. So nothing changes there. Trucks can be forced to use it, granted, but a much shorter connection further south (alternative M at Mäder) would have done that trick aswell. Routes can be enforced for transit. Secondly, S18 will do nothing for the Feldkirch - Buchs corridor. So everything will remain the same there. Everyone wanting to cross from the south, even if the goal in Switzerland is further north, will not take S18. Thirdly, the vast majority of the traffic between Au (CH) - Lustenau (A) - Dornbirn is generated locally, due to shopping and work places etc. Only a fraction will switch to S18, because 90% of the time taking L204 will be much faster.
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Old November 12th, 2017, 11:05 PM   #4450
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And just for your information, it wasn't just a bunch of NIMBYs and green activists who opposed the original S18 plans. It was the municipalities of Wolfurt, Dornbirn, Lauterach, Lustenau and Au (Switzerland), which all passed resolutions against it. None of these towns had a green party mayor.
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Old November 12th, 2017, 11:11 PM   #4451
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Well, you don't need a green party in office for them to have success. Other left-wing parties such as social democrats in many European countries often adapt green policies because they don't want to lose voters to the greens... Especially over important local topics such as an expressway or a power plant.

Green parties often wield more indirect power than their popular vote share suggests. The Netherlands has one of the highest rates of environmental taxes in Europe despite the greens never having been in government and generally get around 5-7% of the vote.
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Old November 13th, 2017, 09:04 AM   #4452
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The social democrats are practically non existent in Vorarlberg. The state was ruled by a conservative and right wing coalition at the time. All towns had conservative or right wing mayors at the time. Today they are all conservative and every town still opposes the original proposal which is also illegal btw.
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Old November 14th, 2017, 12:20 AM   #4453
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Another project at A14 pretty much right between Dornbirn, Lustenau and Hohenems: New exit Rheintal Mitte.



status quo:


building starts now, will be finished by 2020.
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Old November 14th, 2017, 01:12 PM   #4454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
building starts now, will be finished by 2020.
Construction of this exit in flat terrain takes three years!?

During the same period, countries like Hungary build 50km of new expressway. Can't believe a modern country like Austria can be so inefficient.
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Old November 14th, 2017, 02:14 PM   #4455
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Construction of this exit in flat terrain takes three years!?

During the same period, countries like Hungary build 50km of new expressway. Can't believe a modern country like Austria can be so inefficient.
No bridges, no special stuff needed... This should be completed in 6 months!

But it's the same in Germany: In my region they are building are village bypass (2+1) with two bridges (no big ones!) and a hill cut. 2.6 km in total. Started 1.5 years ago, completion date is middle of 2019.

It's ridiculous to see: First building bridge 1 (over a small road), then building bridge 2 (over a "river" - a small one), then starting the road works between the bridges and towards the existing road and in spring next year, the start the hill cut (which is expected to take long time...) and the rest of the road. Crazy...

And in the newspapers every few months is an article how fast progress is... One year it would be if you start with everything at the same time and not part after part...
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Old November 14th, 2017, 06:27 PM   #4456
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Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
building starts now, will be finished by 2020.
No, construction is supposed to start in about a year, and is supposed to be complete by mid 2020, so not quite 2 years of construction time.
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Old November 14th, 2017, 06:29 PM   #4457
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
Another project at A14 pretty much right between Dornbirn, Lustenau and Hohenems: New exit Rheintal Mitte.

building starts now, will be finished by 2020.
Quote:
Originally Posted by celevac View Post
Construction of this exit in flat terrain takes three years!?

During the same period, countries like Hungary build 50km of new expressway. Can't believe a modern country like Austria can be so inefficient.

Well, I think this statement is a bit hasty and based on incomplete information.

I think this has nothing to do with efficiency, and ASFINAG is building projects in a nice rhythm (not saying that enviromental approval is fast, but that is a different story).
E.g. the A5 extension around Poysdorf, 34km, was done in roughly 2 years. Overall construction started earlier already, because they had to realign the national road B7 first to make way for the motorway there, but most other lots had ~2 years construction time. Similar speed was e.g. on the S10 extension to Freistadt, also, the second tube of Gleinalmtunnel (8.3 km) was done in approximately 3.5 years. Once approval and financing is clear, the construction speed is really fine, we don't have projects that drag on forever in an upgrade stage...

Another example, there is an additional half-interchange built along A9 south of Graz (Hengsberg), which has a construction time from August 2017 till end of this year, so that is your 4-5 months (https://www.asfinag.at/verkehrssiche...lle-hengsberg/). But that is a project with 4.5 million Euro budget, and did not include any significant major works.


The one "new interchange" quoted above is worth ~38 million Euro, and includes way more than just an interchange, but a new connection road to Messe (exhibition/fair) Dornbirn, and widening of a state road, basically everything in red below:



Work that starts now is not on the interchange, but on that other road to the Messe Dornbirn, built by the state of Vorarlberg, see e.g. https://www.vorarlberg.at/vorarlberg...lgauautoba.htm


According to ASFINAG (https://www.asfinag.at/verkehrssiche...heintal-mitte/), their part ofconstruction will start in October 2018, and will be finished by mid 2020, so ~1.75 years. Still not über fast, but considering that there is likely quite some coordination and timing with other aspects of the construction, I think it is fine.


(And generally, I think you can't compare building projects that have maybe 85% EU funding contributions with others. If there was that money available for that interchange, it would be done faster as well )
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Old November 14th, 2017, 06:43 PM   #4458
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Construction time really isn't really slow in Austria for both road and rail projects. Both parts of the Pottendorfer Linie upgrade will take only about 3 years each, the Stadlau - Aspern Nord part of the Vienna - Bratislava will be complete after 2 years! As rudiwien mentioned, the construction of road projects also doesn't take very long, S1 with its 3 tunnels also only took 3 years.

But unfortunately it is becoming increasingly popular to complain and moan and discredit officials, while at the same time having little to no clue about the specific projects and processes involved.
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Old November 15th, 2017, 12:17 PM   #4459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stickedy View Post
It's ridiculous to see: First building bridge 1 (over a small road), then building bridge 2 (over a "river" - a small one), then starting the road works between the bridges and towards the existing road and in spring next year, the start the hill cut (which is expected to take long time...) and the rest of the road. Crazy...
As others already pointed out, the exit (AST) is just a part of the project. The much bigger one will be building collector lanes between AST Dornbirn Süd and AST Rheintal Mitte, as well as a new road connecting Rheintal Mitte with an industrial zone in Dornbirn. Also the underground in this area is terrible, so even streets require extraordinary earth works.
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Old November 15th, 2017, 04:34 PM   #4460
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Quote:
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But it's the same in Germany: In my region they are building are village bypass (2+1) with two bridges (no big ones!) and a hill cut. 2.6 km in total. Started 1.5 years ago, completion date is middle of 2019.

simple NO, i know what you mean i am near the border:
https://www.google.at/maps/@48.33253...!3m1!1e3?hl=de
a new section, start official and build a complete simple minor Bridge the first 2 years, after this start with the real construction in total about 6 years, this is Germany


Austria in this case A14-RheintalMitte is the local road Network has to be upgraded first, it make no sence to create the new Exit first, would cause only chaos so the Exit construction is delayed to have it done when the other needed infrastructure is ready




for example A1 widenening from s2-2s to s3-3s done in 12 month with a lot of bridges, only next year they will reduce it back for some completion works


afinag builds always in a regular shedule, as fast as possible and as cheap as possible
(you can be very slow that will be expensive because a lot of small single construction sites, you can be very fast that will be expensive because build Weekends and nights is expensive)
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