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Old December 8th, 2010, 06:45 PM   #1281
ChrisZwolle
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The worst thing in my opinion are those nuclear power plants that have been completed, but never started operation or ceased operation after a short period. There are a few of them in Europe, and considering such a nuclear power plant costs around € 5 billion to construct, you can imagine the huge economic losses caused by politicians and environmentalists. (not to mention the alternative was to construct a coal-fired power plant).
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Old December 8th, 2010, 07:00 PM   #1282
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I find it extremely hilarious you're having this discussion in the Austrian thread. You'll soon find yourself on a blacklist, along with the Turkish ambassador.
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Old December 8th, 2010, 07:14 PM   #1283
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You're absolutely right!

Are there plans to widen the remaining parts of A13 to 2x3 lanes? As far as I can see on (old) Google Earth imagery, about ¾ of the route is already 2x3 lanes. I think strengthening existing routes is better than creating new trans-Alpine routes.
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Old December 8th, 2010, 07:24 PM   #1284
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I don't see the point as the (italian) A22 is 2x2.

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I think strengthening existing routes is better than creating new trans-Alpine routes.
There are even better solutions
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Old December 8th, 2010, 07:36 PM   #1285
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It's not. It's complementary connection, but not solution.
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Old December 8th, 2010, 07:47 PM   #1286
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Yep, it will mostly serve existing and future rail traffic, not truck traffic. Somehow many Alpenites have this weird idea that truck and rail freight are interchangeable no matter what... The Alpine rail systems are an alternative to shipping, rather than truck traffic. Both serve different markets and different types of goods.
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Old December 8th, 2010, 07:59 PM   #1287
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Over 500 km (like much of the Brenner truck traffic) intermodal solutions like carrying semitrailers on trains is a better idea.
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Old December 8th, 2010, 08:33 PM   #1288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Are there plans to widen the remaining parts of A13 to 2x3 lanes? As far as I can see on (old) Google Earth imagery, about ¾ of the route is already 2x3 lanes. I think strengthening existing routes is better than creating new trans-Alpine routes.
The AADT is 20000 to 30000. You don't really need 2x3 for this traffic volumes.
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Old December 8th, 2010, 08:44 PM   #1289
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Yes, but summer volumes are much higher, and the incline results in slow trucks. Besides that, it's only the middle section between Innsbruck and the Brennerpass which is 2x2 (after the toll station).
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Old December 9th, 2010, 06:30 PM   #1290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
^
Are there plans to widen the remaining parts of A13 to 2x3 lanes? As far as I can see on (old) Google Earth imagery, about ¾ of the route is already 2x3 lanes. I think strengthening existing routes is better than creating new trans-Alpine routes.
Does anyone know how large are lanes in Austrian A13?
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Old December 9th, 2010, 08:41 PM   #1291
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Yes, but summer volumes are much higher, and the incline results in slow trucks.
Which is why 3 lanes are available in the steeper parts. And summer traffic probably won't exceed 70.000 to 80.000 Kfz/24 h which can still be handled reasonably well on a 2x2 motorway. The bottleneck on those days is the toll station anyway.
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Old December 14th, 2010, 02:49 PM   #1292
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I took a few pictures of the unfinished ramps on Vienna's A23 between the exits Landstrasse and Favoriten. This never-completed exit features prominently on radio traffic reports as "gesperrte Ausfahrt Simmering".

I was surprised that there were no barriers or signs whatsoever that would keep you from wandering right onto Austria's busiest Autobahn. It also appeared to have been plowed after the snowfalls and it might be used by emergency service and maintenance vehicles. Also, the police sometimes like to hide at the end of the ramp, where drivers can't see them because of the noise-barriers until it's too late.

A few years ago I remember reading about plans to open it to traffic and build a connection to higher-capacity roads further south. Apparently those plans have been dropped, because I could no longer find that page on the ASFINAG website. Right now, the stub ends in the middle of a green field next to a low density residential neighborhood.












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Old December 14th, 2010, 03:51 PM   #1293
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Why don't they at least use it as an interchange?
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Old December 14th, 2010, 04:22 PM   #1294
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what do you mean by interchange?
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Old December 14th, 2010, 04:34 PM   #1295
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I mean as an access of that neighborhood to the A23.
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Old December 14th, 2010, 04:55 PM   #1296
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In the long term I think, exit Simmering would be great for a connection/extension of A3:



Until then, maybe connection to S1 would make A23 less congested.

In fact I am sure I saw a drawing like this for future extension of A3 already somewhere.

Last edited by rarse; December 14th, 2010 at 06:33 PM.
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Old December 14th, 2010, 05:12 PM   #1297
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This was actually the original plan, but IIRC environmentalists have prevented it. What a pity, hundreds of ultra-jams would have been prevented with this alternate route - instead they strapped some lanes to the already vulnerable A2... :/

I wish they rediscover this as an alternative to the A24, after reports
about skyrocketing costs.


Like snowman159 wrote, recent plans to use the exit have been postponed - because of protests by NIMBYs living along the planned access road, even though the strip was reserved for decades...
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Old December 15th, 2010, 03:39 AM   #1298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rower2000 View Post
Unfortunately, ain't gonna happen. Rail services over short to medium distances are timewise no competition to going by car, even with the whole congestion. If I may provide an example from my personal life: I grew up in Bregenz, right on L190 close to HTL, so I know the whole traffic problem by heart. Now I live in Zurich and work in Dübendorf, so when I want to visit my parents over the weekend I have two possibilities:
[...]
That means, in the end it takes my 1:10 h longer, I need to change 4 times, and I have to carry all my stuff through town in the end. No-brainer for me.
I agree with you, but that's why rail transport has to become better. And it already is! Switzerland is upgrading the St. Gallen to St. Margrethen line and so does Austria between St. Margrethen and Bregenz. There are some trains that go directly from Zurich to Bregenz already and in the future (once the Lindau to Munich line will be electrified) there will be even more and faster services.

Actually already now the fastest travelling option between Lustenau and Bregenz (obviously also depending on where you start and end your journey) is the train. With 11min you can't beat that with a car. But you are right, things have to improve.

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Korridorvignette is 2 EUR per direction. I sincerely hope that our politicians find a way to prolong the sale (are there elections coming in 2013?). However, hoping politicians do useful stuff is futile most of the time .
It would be a smart and sensible solution. However, I doubt it's gonna happen.

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It's also an almost proven fact that the 2nd tube won't give much relief to the traffic situation in Bregenz, save some weekends in the holiday season when drivers try to avoid the jam in front of the tunnel. If you have followed the "Planungsprozess unteres Rheintal", there are the traffic research results. Bregenz itself and Dornbirn can only be relieved from traffic by an improved public transport system. In Lustenau, Hard, and Fussach, traffic reductions can rather be achieved by a new bypass road. And there is the problem: as with many things, only a combination of measures can achieve the desired result. However, the promotors of public transport always want to kill road projects, while the highway promotors think there is no use in public transport. If you would combine a new connection of A14.at and A13/A1.ch with the Korridorvignette valid on the whole connection and an improved public transport network in Northern Vorarlberg, you would probably get a reasonable result for the citizens living there.

The main problem with the connection CH/A on the road network is the "Dorfkaisertum". While the mayor of Lustenau wants a new road, but near Lauterach and Hard, the mayors of Lauterach and Hard want a new road, but near Lustenau. I think that with necessary measures such as cut-and-cover tunnels and biotop reclaims, a new road while minimizing the impact on the environment is possible.
I followed the process and I can tell you one thing: There will not be any road. No road can bring a relief north of Lustenau, according to the calculations. Okay, so the Lustenau option is left. A south of Lauterach route was already ruled out by Hard and Lauterach. Which I fully agree with. So what options are left?

Lustenau East: Besides the fact that it won't happen, because this is right where all the Lustenau folks have their "Riedhütten" (little cottages and fields) and no one dares to expropriate a quarter of the population, no one ever said how this should actually work. Who's gonna pay for it? No one! So it's not going to happen.

Cut-and-cover tunnels are a nice idea, but how are you gonna do that in swamp grounds? And that's what we are talking about here. You can't even built a swimming pool without a deep level foundation in this area. So who is going to pay for that? We already see major infrastructure projects in Vienna and Linz cancelled - do you really think they will build a new road under these circumstances?
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Old December 15th, 2010, 01:04 PM   #1299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
I agree with you, but that's why rail transport has to become better. And it already is! Switzerland is upgrading the St. Gallen to St. Margrethen line and so does Austria between St. Margrethen and Bregenz. There are some trains that go directly from Zurich to Bregenz already and in the future (once the Lindau to Munich line will be electrified) there will be even more and faster services.
Fully agree. Unfortunately, the direct trains are always overcrowded, at least in my student days when I was always taking peak time trains (Fri evening to Bregenz, Sun evening back to ZH). The new St. Margrethen - Bregenz options are pretty nice, the hourly service gives good connections to the St. Margrethen - St. Gallen and St. Gallen - Zürich connections.
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Actually already now the fastest travelling option between Lustenau and Bregenz (obviously also depending on where you start and end your journey) is the train. With 11min you can't beat that with a car. But you are right, things have to improve.
With this, I can fully agree. However, here again we have the base problem of public transportation. If you go from city center to city center, it's nice and you don't have any problems. From outer quarter to outer quarter, it gets messier because of many changes, and urban public transport is often problematic if you're travelling with baggage, especially in peak hours. Try to board bus 46 or tram 13 at Zürich Meierhofplatz with a trolley, a laptop bag and a rucksack at 5:45 pm to reach the 18:16 EC ZH-Munich. I can tell you, it's not a pleasant experience. Furthermore, what's IMHO desperately needed is an integration of urban networks into long-distance rail tickets. I think it's ridiculous to pay 46 CHF for a return ticket from ZH to Bregenz, and then pay 2.90 CHF plus 2.90 CHF (Zurich public transport) plus 1.20 EUR plus 1.20 EUR (VVV), 9 CHF (20%) simply to get from your home to the station, from the station to your destination and back.

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Cut-and-cover tunnels are a nice idea, but how are you gonna do that in swamp grounds? And that's what we are talking about here. You can't even built a swimming pool without a deep level foundation in this area. So who is going to pay for that? We already see major infrastructure projects in Vienna and Linz cancelled - do you really think they will build a new road under these circumstances?
No, I really don't think so, because of the reasons you have mentioned. However, I fear that simply sticking the head into the sand and shouting "use the train, use the train, use the train" like our dear politicians do won't solve any problem.
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Old December 17th, 2010, 04:41 PM   #1300
ChrisZwolle
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A12 Inntal Autobahn

The Roppener Tunnel has been opened today with 2 tubes. It originally consisted out of 1 tube, which was frequently saturated and posed a traffic safety problem with head-on accidents. A second tube has been constructed between 2005 and 2009, after which the original tube has been renovated. Both tubes are now open to traffic!

The Roppener Tunnel is 5,1 kilometers long.
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